who will be first to surpass senna in race wins? Vettel or hamilton?

Wrong again, the only lap in the 1.42 at that time was his i lap when rosberg had peeled off.... Up until then, it was as I stated previously. He needs to play as a team man, if he is going to bleat about fair play when he loses.

Senna won races in the mclaren against the all-dominating Williams of mansell and Prost, so what are you talking about? He may have had a great car for a couple seasons, but he shone in every car he was given. Hambone HAS MOST DEFINATELY NOT.

 

You left out the Lotus against the McLaren

 

And Toleman (almost) against Prost in the all conquering McLaren in Monaco in 1984. Or how about Vettel winning in a Toro Rosso against Hamilton the year Hamilton won the WDC in 2008 in the best car. Hamilton is very good, but I think he would be the first to say he is not as good as Senna.

 

Just read that the penalty to Jenson for hitting Maldonado included a time penalty, so he finished behind Alonso and Sainz Jr. in China.

Hey, now we have a tight McLaren team race to root for !

 

Indeed. Unfortunately, I opened this thread, with him firmly on ignore, but many continue to quote his nonsense, so once again I got dragged in.

You're just trolling, surely?

Says who, exactly? The (highly debatable, but somewhat credible) lists I've seen barely have him in the top 20. Please show me anything (outside of the gutter press, who know nothing) that says he's in the top 10, let alone top 5?

Uncle Ron was able to put the silver spoon in his mouth, and he took advantage - Good for him. Doesn't make him a great.

+1

Troll. [Your comment once again shows your ignorance of the sport. The 'best racer' & 'best qualifiers' cannot truly be determined over eras.]

Have you ever attended a GP? The TV and the record books are one thing. But actually watching Ayrton at his magical best, particularly in the junior formulae, was to witness something special. You felt it. You saw it. The same with Jimmy of course. And Michael. Ronnie was another that could take your breath away with his "awesomeness".

Some of these same witnesses to Ayrtons greatness are saying the same of young Max btw .

Lewham? Not so much unless the teams 100% on his side, and he has the #1 call, he's as big of a whiner as there's ever been..... He even whined about leaving the pit-lane alongside someone (?) this past W/E.... Bwah, bwah, bwah.

He even leaked team secrets not so long ago.

Your 'learning' about the sport from Wiki and surfing around random sites does not, and will never, make you any more than an ignorant fool to those who have seen it and know.

I sure hope so!... Hammy is super quick & talented, no doubt. But he's not, and I don't believe ever will be, among the pantheon of the true greats. His heads not 'right' for it. I never once heard Jimmy, or Ayrton or Michael (or their fans) bleating about 'girlfriend trouble', or 'the team being against me', or a myriad other excuses & whining when beaten.

The greats go head down, arse up and figure it out! Hammy's damn good, for sure, but one of the greats? Not a chance.

Cheers,
Ian

 

I like a driver who is eclectic and able to compete in different disciplines.

 

+458

 

I am not quite sure about that.

Several people have reported since that Clark had the choice of racing a Lotus F2 at Hockenheim or a Ford prototype for Alan Mann at Brands Hatch that same week-end.
He choose the German race instead.

Clark had been quite successful in F2 over the years, whilst his sport car appearances were more sporadic.

 

+1

Except, at the time, he believed Hockenheim was his contractual obligation.

Tire suppliers/contracts were also involved IIRC(?)

"Subsequent reports" were, well, "subsequent".

I guess a bunch of legal eagles poring over the contracts discussing how they'd have given him the choice....

Cheers,
Ian

 

I believe it was firestone at the time that told him to do that F2 race. I could be mistaken but i'm almost positive thats why.

 

Equally, Clark must have felt the pull of Ford who was paying him a serious retainer after Lotus switched to the DFV engine.
Walter Haynes of Ford was bankrolling Alan Mann's sport car team that year.
Clark would have been asked to drive the Len bailey-penned Ford proto only in the short races.

 

I agree with you Ian, as I stated earlier in this thread, I do not rate Hamilton in the top 10 and he certainly is not the best a British driver, that distinction belongs to Jim Clark by a significant margin. Senna, Schumacher, Clark, Fangio and Prost are simply in another league than Hamilton.

 

Andreas, you make a valid point, knowing what team to choose and what batles to fight it's obviously very importante to the end result but, you're not being fair on Alesi or Clark.

Jim was under contract with Lotus, he was supose to be driving another car in another race but Colin decided he should race that f.2 race and so he did....he was just a man doing his job, he was just being a good professional and doing what he was being paid to do.
As for Jean it's easy to talk now but if you remenber, in 1990 The Ferrari was a title contender, williams was not. Ferrari was the best available team to him. Of course it was the team of his dreams but also the most competitive one, his decision was logical, nobody can reproach him on that. Plus, he had a previous contract with Williams but Frank would not honour that contract, Alesi kept asking him to anounce him as a driver and Frank kept pushing it forward, missing deadlines, because in Alesi's back he was trying to get Mansell back, he prefered Mansell and wanted to block Alesi preventing him to sign for Ferrari....
Also, as i told you before, not all of us wan't the same thing, The title was not the ultimate goal for Gilles, and that reflects on the way that he, (or Prost for example) faced a grand prix.....i have no doubt In those days Prost had more chances of winning than Gilles did, but if cars where as reliable a sthey are today, Gilles would have trounced him most of the times, because he was simply a better driver, he was faster, had more car control, more skills and more balls (he had that more tna any other driver in history). To me it´s all about talent, that's what i wan't to see, but i prefectly understand and respect that you value more other things , this is the beauty of racing

 

This is a subjective notion.

First, one cannot compare drivers from different eras. Hamilton drives in an era where F1 allows many drivers aids (telemetry, radio communication, data logging, pit monitoring, traction control, paddleshift gearchange, power assisted steering,), apart from the huge staff behind the running of a team.

Second, there are more GPs per season now, so more chances to win. Stats don't reflect that. Fangio won less GPs than Hamilton, for example, but was 5 times WDC.


Third, Hamilton has only competed in one category per season, and never raced successfully in different disciplines at the same time. Hamilton cannot be "the most successful British driver" if he only compete in one type of racing.

So, that puts Hamilton well behind people like Hawthorn, Moss, C-Hill, Clark, Surtee, Stewart who did all this, collected wins in Endurance, Road races, rallying, ouring cars, Indy, GT, CanAM whilst winning GPs and WDC championships.

 

Again.... OMFG

 

I baited myself into this one. I have nothing to blame but my own stupidity for even entertaining this. I'm going back to ignoring it. When this season is over, hopefully so is mercedes reign so this people go back under their rocks.

 

+1, at least it is good for a little comedic relief after a tough long day of work. Maybe one day he will wake up from this dream and understand there was Formula 1 before Hamilton, maybe he can actually attend an actual race.

 

Yes and I blame you....that every thread is shrewn with cowpats of Hamilton hate.

 

Glad you find it funny, IMO it's pathetic.

 

Wait....did you just disagree with toil??

 

Again: that only means that he never sat in a bad car. He never drove a Toleman, Jordan or Toro Rosso...

It matters because it directly affects the statistics you are always referring of...
You want to tell us that Hamilton was just one season in a competitive car??? And you always point out that Hamilton had to fight for his WDC driving against Kovalainen and Rosberg wheras Senna only had to beat Prost...Again you must be kidding...

No, people can´t handle your line of arguing...You have no clue what was going on before Hamilton sat in a F1 car but you think you know everything because you know how to read Wikipedia...

He is finally getting a chance in a dominant car??? After a season in a car that was more dominant than every car before although he did absolutely nothing for that? Schumacher developed the Ferrari with Brawn and Todt over years into a winning car whereas Hamilton did nothing but signing a contract for that...And you think he "finally" gets a dominant car like he had to drive dogs before...You must have lost reality completely...
It is funny how you talk yourself into trouble...You did that telling us stories about Stewart when that name came up a few weeks ago and now you start to do the same thing with Senna. It is really funny how you can ask everyone in F1 who was actually in the business when he was driving about the alltime great and they name Senna but you sitting in front of your PC 25 years later know better because you looked into some "stats" on Wikipedia...If you talk about natural talent you should watch a few races and qualifyings of Senna, especially from inboard with no assistance and manual gearbox, maybe then you start to realize what talent is...

 

not from me!!! I think that's the problem....the Hamilton fanbois think that if their fanaticism isn't agreed with, it can only be because of hate! People can have a different opinion to yours, you know.

 

+1

Me too.

It's hard not to try and educate the ignorant.

Many have tried. And we've all failed.

I apologized before for taking the bait. Lesson well & truly learnt this time.

I'm done.
Ian