What is the real issue with the Renault Power Units?

So I'm assuming all these guys are really smart and understand racing and racing engines. Where exactly is the problem with their PU? Are the parts just inferior quality are they being put together shabbily? What's the issue? Why are they down so much on power? Again... are the components like the turbo not as good... putting out as much boost? Or is it all electronics where there is just a lack of efficiency and they can't harness the same amount of usable ERS?

I mean when they dyno the engine and see that it's still the same ... or actually less HP than last year... what causes that?

 

I can assure you Renault use many of the same suppliers as Mercedes and Ferrari. Only 2 companies make turbos in F1 (unless Honda is using a Mitsubishi unit), KKK (Borg Warner) and Honeywell. Castings only come from a couple of people. Bearings like wise. Ditto with engine management.

Not everyone can make it happen like Mercedes did last and this year.

 

In F1 besides the power unit there are so many other factors that effect the performance of the car. The chassis, aero dynamics, software, fuel efficiency, tires.. Just to name a few. Look at Williams. They have the same PU as Mercedes and they are not as fast as them.

 

Software? Engine mapping perhaps?

With varrious sources of ERS (Exhaust heat, engine over-run , regenerative braking), the electronics become become very complex and obtaining driveability is initially achieved by not optimising the systems.

That's my supposition, plus the fact that heat dissipation around very sensitive electronic bits all over the power unit has been a problem. Package all the components to make them work has been a new challenge.

 

They're from France. Do i need to say more?

 

Just like the Raffale fighter jets the KSA just bought !

LOL

 

Google Translate

 

Why would it take six weeks to fix a problem with the pistons? That just boggles my mind. I'm sure the ERS harvesting and application is a wild card but I'm wondering how the engine (ICE) itself could be so poor.

 

This was so much more entertaining than in the original language, I suspect.

 

If you spend a token on a piston fix and it doesn't fix the piston problem, what do you do? This could point to a flaw in the token system. If a PU maker uses a token on a poorly performing part or system and the new part is worse, what do they do? They have already spent their token. Not being able to test just makes it worse.

 

That will be enough of that common sense thank you.

 

This new PU- Hybrid rules SUCK. Engines running below max rpm to save fuel and the rest of these limits. What kind of racing is this becoming. Go back to no hybrids and let them max out. This is racing, forget saving fuel and the rest. Bring back the noise.

 

They are allowed to make changes for reliability purposes without using tokens.

I think the problem is probably not a simple case of a defective piston design, more one of shape that causes less than desirable burn characteristics introducing possibly pre ignition and/or incomplete burn that is not just a simple fix. The long timetable probably comes because if they change the pistons, they probably have to change the cylinder heads to match and then the intake to match that along with fuel mapping and they have some performance parts (tokens) they want to introduce that need to be folded in along with them not wanting to use up their engine allocation too quickly etc etc. With as complicated as an f1 engine is these days, you can't just change a part with no knock on effects, the whole thing operates as a system...

 

They don't run below max rpm to save fuel, they run below max rpm because it doesn't make any more power and just uses more fuel and causes more wear for no benefit.

I judge the pu by how much power it makes, not the noise, that's 12 year old mentality. Go watch Nascar or top fuel, they make plenty of noise. These power units blow the old v8's out of the water power wise and do it with 30%less fuel. That's technological evolution,the v8's were stagnant rpm limited antiques.

 

Yes I know F1 engines are more technologically advanced then other forms of racing, and also were at the fore front of engine technology. Pneumatic valve gear etc. That is why I always liked F1! I'm old school and like the simpler rules. Hi rpm always equaled more HP. IMO this hybrid car tech could go away in production cars. The price of oil drops, EV car sales drop. Don't you think if an alternative fuel vehicle came out to save fuel and started to eat into the oil business that the price of oil would get way cheap? And the buying public would go for a simple IC vehicle? How long have we been told the gas burning piston engine would disappear? It is still here. The sound of a multi cyl. racing engine at hi rpm is music to some. The price of these Hybrid PU are extremely costly compared to the older units.

 

That is exactly my point...the token system is idiotic. If you follow your logic, they could change the intercoolers, air intakes, turbo, exhaust manifolds, fuel pumps, etc. because any change will have an impact on other parts in the system. It should be required that whatever part is replaced or redesigned work with what is already there. If the piston design needs to be redone, then the redo needs to work with the current cylinder head design. Otherwise they need to use tokens for a new head design. Of course, if the head design is frozen, then it cannot be changed. The reliability exception is a ruse that lets some bureaucrat at the FIA decide who gets to develop homologated engine parts and who doesn't. If a redesign is strictly for reliability purposes, let them demonstrate that it did not improve output. Or...let them continue to develop as they see fit.

 

You're blacklisted...

Rgds

 

I guess I'll get flamed here, but I disagree. It a well thought out (by the teams don't forget) system to try and contain spending. We can debate until the cows come home if that's a 'good' thing or not, but it's what they wanted.

Understand what you're getting at, but changing 'everything' on reliability/cost or safety grounds is not going to fly with the others. At least until you start using tokens to do it.

And that's pretty much what they've got to do..... And your first comment is simply wrong.... Here's the relevant section, my emphasis added;

So, not an FIA 'ruse' at all as the other guys must agree, and you can bet they're studying any proposed changes by their competitors with a fine tooth comb.

Cheers,
Ian

 

The token system is idiotic.
The test ban is idiotic.
The number of engine limit is idiotic.
The ban on development is idiotic.
The attempt to reduce spending is idiotic.
The tyre monopoly is idiotic.
The whole set of rules is idiotic.

The futile attempt to reduce costs has introduced the most ridicule set of rules.

I am glad to have followed GP (and actually attended races) when it was an all-out sport, and not a specs series through the back door.
We had banzai engines and chassis for qualifs, a choice of spare cars, no limit in engine technology, constant development, etc...
Teams used to have private tests between races, a tyre war all season, exotic fuels, etc...

People who join F1 now as spectators don't know what they missed.

And as somebody coined already, it was an era when sex was safe and motor racing dangerous; now it's the other way round. You could find beer in the pits, and see some drivers smoking as well. Times have changed ...

 

I've never seen Renault struggle like this in a long time. However, instead of whining and complaining to the press, I think both Red Bull and Christian Horner should work more closely together with Renault to see how they can overcome this crisis together.

 

+1000000 my friend.

 

All true.
If they want to address F1 finances they need to do something about the unequal distribution of Bernie Bucks between the teams.

 

The teams that were the most vociferous against the unequal distribution (Lotus, Sauber and Force India) seem to have gone quiet about it lately.
Instead they have turned against Manor that somehow managed to survive to claim its share from the 2014 season.
But the issue hasn't gone away, in spite of the rumour that Bernie has put some money upfront at the begining of 2015, to quell a revolt in the ranks.

 

Perhaps. Only those involved know for sure.

Any cash infusions are just stop gap measures. The inequities are baked into F1 and until those (within the sport and the investors) who are living high off the hog are willing to share a bit more the system will be unsustainable.

 

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