who will be first to surpass senna in race wins? Vettel or hamilton?

1.) I have answered your question: obviously the car did not suit Vettels driving style at all just as the Ferrari did not suit Raikkonen.
2.) Vettel was comming out of a dominant 4 year and had to deal with a complete new situation. As we learned later on he was not that happy with the team anymore and the team not with him, that is why he left. Riccardo on the other side was stepping up and was walking on clouds in his first season in a decent car. Looks like Riccardo is facing difficulties now as well, maybe his first enthusiasm is gone as well
3.) and most important: nobody says that Vettel is amongst the true greats yet winning in a RB four titels. It is the Hamilton league that say LH is the great one taking down Vettel whenever possible. Don´t turn the said around now...I just mentioned that one can not take a statistic that suits the own argument saying Hamilton is the Hero because of this and this statistic and say on the other side that Vettels statistic is worth nothing because he was driving a superior RB, no more no less.

Again: Hamilton does nothing else Vettel did years in a RB...Driving to pole in the fastest car and doing a trouble free victory start-finish. But Hamilton "does a brilliant drive" and Vettel just had another win in a Newey-Car, were is the sense in that?

If you read the entire thread you will see what I mentioned early on: who cares who af them gets more victories than Senna, it does not make them necessarily equal to Ayrton!

 

+1 Senna was driving a Toleman in 1984 at Monaco, a car that was no doubt uncompetitive, no where near the McLaren of Prost or the Ferrari's or most of the other cars. It was probably the 9th or 10h fastest car on the grid, as his teammate qualified 18th. Senna Qual'd 13th I think, due to his skills and driving the car beyond its capabilities. If Prost wouldn't have been complaining and waving to stop the race every time he crossed the finish line, Senna would have won that race.

 

HA! He's not average by any measure. He's awesome. But you try to demonstrate it by picking a stat that doesn't really prove much considering the cars he's had. And if some here believe that other drivers like Vettel or Alonso might be just as awesome, or the all time greats like Schumacher and Senna are better, you think it's some sort of knock against Hami. I don't recall seeing anyone say he's average. Just not necessarily the best.

 

But for some reason this is exactly what the Hamilton fans read in every single post since more than a year now...People thinking different and don´t sharing their enthusiasm are labeled as "haters"...

 

+1

Look at Mayweather, undefeated, but if you look at some of his competition, especially more recently, it paints a different picture. Floyd is definitely not average, but not the greatest by a long shot. He ducked Pacquiao for so many years.

When Mayweather fought Marquez, he brought up Marquez two weight classes from Lightweight to Welterweight, at a catchweight, that Mayweather failed to make. Marquez had never fought at above 135 lbs.

So yeah, stats are not everything. I would love to see Gennady Golovkin drop down a weight class to Jr Middleweight/Super Welterweight and face Mayweather though.

 

Is it me or recently the f.1 section seems to be plagued with hamitown fanboys?
I guess Toil must be using various IPs cretaing new users to defend his hero...

 

Well if it is only statistcs that matter, we must come to the conclusion that Button is the greatest of all since he out scored Hamilton when they were teammates 2010-2012 in those uncompetitive McLarens.

 

I guess he is a great driver that doesn't know how to adapt?
What happens if he gets beat by old man Kimi this year? Are we going to hear the same excuses?

If you read the entire post I keep saying that it's foolish to compare drivers from different eras. Some of you here are convinced that Senna would sit in a modern car and wipe the floor with this new generation.

With your logic maybe we should remove all stats and just put Senna on top of every list? Who cares about the other guy that has more wins, poles, etc.
After all, we all know competition has always been the same. We always had 6 world champions competing just like in 2012 and the cars are virtually unchanged since the 80s.

 

As far as the drivers being much better athletes, I just listened to a very interesting podcast from Sky Sports F1 where they interviewed Kimi's physical trainer and he said the cars are much more less physically draining to drive than any other time for Kimi. During testing they were doing 2 race distances back to back without any neck issues. He said that in past years the first tests were very draining due to the fact there is no substitute for racing to strengthen the neck muscles. Max Verstoppen has also been very vocal that he would not be strong enough to race in Formula 1 in its past iterations, but because the G loads are so much more diminished from what they used to be, this does not cause a problem for him.

 

I was actually at that race.

Yes, Senna would have won the race and Bellof probably come in 2nd.

The ultimate irony is however, that if Prost hadn't used "French allegiance" power on race directory Ickx and the race had gone to full length (or at least a few more laps), it would have counted for full points and those extra points would have secured his title against Lauda.

 

I'm not a Hamilton fanboy but you can't argue with the guy being top notch given his recent results. Any multiple WDC knows how to drive. And he is soon entering a very small/elitist club of triple Champions.

I realize none of that matters in how you see the world of F1 but you can't use your skewed perspective as the norm. Most people list the drivers by their actual accomplishments.

 

I think some of you need to read the entire post again.
We even had Alesi better than Hamilton.

I jumped in and said it was foolish to compare driver's form different eras. I suggested to always ask yourself if Clark, Fangio, Senna would have achieved the same with a modern car. Some of you have obviously seen them beat Alonso and Hamilton.

Don't worry though I've seen this in every sport. The best were always from the time the person grew up and nobody will change their mind. It will be the same 50-100 years from now.

We all know the human species doesn't improve at anything they do. The driver from the past that drove as a hobby is better than the professional athlete today that trains all day in a gym and drives sophisticated simulators.
The old-timer will know more about the track during a handful of practice laps than the modern driver that does 1000s of laps in a simulator of that same exact track.

 

I'm only 31, Clark died before i was even a sperm. Senna is the only one i was able to see while i was alive out of that trio.

How about you ask yourself this question...does Hamilton think he's better than Senna?

Watch the top gear tribute where Lewis drives Senna's Mclaren and they compare the side by side videos and just listen to him speak about his idol.

And to quote Down Periscope-Nobody talks about brave men and their proud simulators

 

Actually I'd say fortunately there are on here very knowledgeable and realistic posters, that are not blinded by various unknown coloured blinkers, Hamilton is one, if not the best one, of the current crop of F1 drivers, to deny otherwise is, a ridiculous notion IMO.

The plagued is quite the contrary, and hopefully is getting stamped out.

 

Please show me where I stated Hamilton was better than Senna.
I'm the only one here that is against comparing drivers from different eras. I said it works both ways. We will never know what Senna would accomplish with a modern car and we will never know what Hamilton/Alonso would do in the 80s/90s against Senna.
It seems like most of you guys are getting annoyed because his records will be broken. To me it doesn't diminish Senna's accomplishments. He will always be the greatest of his generation. However, to keep repeating that he would be able to sit in any car, any era and beat anyone is very narrow minded.

 

On the contrary, i've stated before i hope for Hamiltons sake he breaks Senna's win record. I imagine that would one of the greatest days of his life.

I rate Hamilton 2nd best behind Alonso. I just dont like blind loyalty which a lot of people on here have. They think Hamilton is gods gift to motorsport and refuse to look at it any other way. I don't rate Vettel as anyone special, but i believe with luck he will have 6 WDC's. The Ferrari will be very competitive in the next few years and he will win again eclipsing Prost and Fangio to become the 2nd most successful driver in terms of wins and WDC's. However given i'm alive to see him in action, he hasn't been a spectacular driver IMO.


I also think Senna would have faired very well in the modern age given how well Schumacher faired in the modern age. But like you said, we'll never know.

I've also compared Alonso to drivers such as Ronnie Peterson who was rated the fastest driver just always in the wrong car. The year he could've won, he died.

 

I think the great drivers of the past, Senna, Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Surtees, etc. would have simply ADAPTED to today's machines. Their learning curves might vary but all of them were winners with that intangible "it" that would carry them to success today until their reflexes and eyesight diminished.

 

I agree.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Agree with this. At a certain level, there is a driving "instinct" that pushes the greats above everyone else...something that simply can't be taught or trained for.

Sure, it's all conjecture to say the greats would be as successful in today's F1, but I would imagine current F1 drivers feel the same about the names listed above.

 

The way things are going, I think Hamilton will reach it before Vettel does. Where's the next GP? Barcelona?

 

Sorry you still believe that old woman's tale, Andreas...
Prost did not use any "French allegiance" power on Jacky Ickx, because Jacky is Belgian, and Belgians usually do not yeld to French. The end of that race has nothing to do with any politics at all: the race leader, Prost, waved for the race to stop, and the race director stopped it, period.

My own guess is that had the race gone to its end, the winner could very well have been Bellof, not Senna; because my memory of the race times is that at the moment they stopped it, Bellof was catching Senna fast.
But both might as well have crashed before the end of the race, who knows? After all, Senna has a notorious lapse of concentration in the same race in 1988...

But I am not interested in guessing what could, would etc...have happened.
Only in what actually happened: at the moment the race was stopped, Senna was catching Prost, and Bellof was catching Senna. And the race was then ended.

Rgds

 

+1, That mONACO 84 STORY is worse than Hamilton spraying the girl....if there ever was a non political guy, that was Ickx, and no one, i repeat no one had more autority about driving in the rain than him to make that call.

 

Steve, there are indeed many knowledgeable and realistic posters here, and it is most unfortunate that so many of them have to write BS just to shut up a couple of fanboys who don't know the diference between an f.1 and a lorry.....none of this poster will deny Hamilton's talent, because it's so obvious....in fact the biggest problem with the guy are the fanboys..(not your case obviously, you are a fan but you can discuss anything else related to f.1)..because they can't talk about anything else....they have Hamilton and then a big zero, they no nothing and they say nothing productive....Hell, i'm not sure who is the best out there...i know Maldonado isn't!!! But some guys around here, who have never seen most of the guys they talk about race think they know it all, and frankly sometimes pisses me off, someothers i take it ligtly and have fun with it...but most of the time it simply ruins the whole point of discussing about f.1...

 

So basically whenever the race leader feels its too dangerous he can just wave his hand and stop a race? Nothing to do with a rookie catching him? I'm a big fan of Prost as well, but that was a political move and it bit him in the ass in the end because he lost out on the championship.

And you're right, we don't know what would have been, only whats done.