BB512 started missing. Any ideas? | FerrariChat

BB512 started missing. Any ideas?

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by John B, May 4, 2015.

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  1. John B

    John B Formula 3

    May 27, 2003
    1,564
    NJ
    #1 John B, May 4, 2015
    Last edited: May 4, 2015
    So I took my BB512 out for a nice long 3 day run covering about 1,000 miles. It ran great the first two days, but on the way home on the last day it started missing above 4,000 rpm. I was trying to diagnose whether it was fuel or ignition and decided it's probably ignition. It pulls very strong up to 4,000 rpm under full throttle then stumbles. It also does the same thing under 1/4 throttle, running clean up to 4,000 then missing. All else is as normal. My car still has the original Magneti Marelli box and the MSD Blaster 2 coil that was in it when I acquired it.

    I'm thinking maybe the coil, which has been mounted sideways for probably 9 years. Also possibly the spark plug extenders. I'll give them all a good look over.

    Has anyone here experienced a similar problem and solved it?
     
  2. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    May 27, 2004
    19,756
    FL
    Full Name:
    Sean
    Bad Spark plug wires or exteders can do it.

    Where did you go?
     
  3. 412monzaindy

    412monzaindy Formula Junior

    Mar 8, 2005
    877
    Ontario Canada
    Full Name:
    PBI
    Distributor cap and rotor, coil, plugs, wires, etc. Don't use champion plugs!
     
  4. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    9,548
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    romano schwabel
    you write here: 512 BB - so a carburator car?
    I once had a similar problem and 1 fuelpump was not running anymore. but this problem I only had with full or nearly full trottle and more than 5500 rpm.
    when you accelerate in idle over 4000 do you have the same problem or only when driving?
     
  5. John B

    John B Formula 3

    May 27, 2003
    1,564
    NJ
    Yes, it's a carb car.
    It also does it in neutral slowly revving up. Runs clean up to 4,000 then misses and barely revs higher.

    The trip was RPM VT's "Spring Rally" My son and I took our BB512 and GTC from NJ to Vergennes VT Friday evening. About 20 cars participated. We had a nice breakfast Saturday morning at RPM's shop and checked out their current projects and cars in inventory. Lots of great stuff! Then we went for a nice 2 1/2 hour drive through the beautiful Vermont back country roads. Lots of fast sweepers and beautiful scenery. We had a nice lunch near Bromley, VT followed by another nice drive back to RPM's shop. There was ample swaping of cars which was very interesting and enjoyable. It was a wonderful event. Great cars, beautiful roads and fantastic people.

    We spent the night in Burlington VT with some friends, then "Cannonballed" a couple of cases of Fiddlehead double IPA back home in record time. All in about 1,000 miles.

    The GTC needs more front downforce!

    Heres a link to some pics my son took.
    https://www.facebook.com/cburke996/media_set?set=a.10153257044245903.1073741826.669330902&type=1&pnref=story
     
  6. 308mon

    308mon Karting

    Oct 5, 2014
    169
    UK
    Had similar during a "spirited" high speed run and only after easing off the speed and she would then hesitate or stumble. Had all the ignition harness, extenders, etc. off and found a couple of suspect points (signs of mild arcing) where the extenders clip into the top caps. Careful cleaning, inspection and test and no repeat (so far!).
     
  7. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 26, 2001
    14,479
    Canada
    Full Name:
    Newman
    If the tach bounces while it misses, as in jumps significantly then its the dinoplex or if it backfires and the tach jumps.

    The caps on boxers are famous for growing green stuff inside the cap. Check it out.

    Check the extenders as well for a pin hole in the side of the plastic just adjacent to the spring wire that engages the threaded terminal on the plug.

    A coil typically works or it doesnt.

    Could be as simple as a bad plug. I run NGK BPR6ES.
     
  8. samsaprunoff

    samsaprunoff F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 8, 2004
    4,465
    Edmonton, AB Canada
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    Sam Saprunoff
    Good day John,

    If you are still using the OEM fuse blocks, I would check and clean the fuse and clips of the circuit that feeds the fuel pumps (Fuse 3 on the White blocks) and ignition circuits.... and while you are at it inspect/clean the other fuses too. If you are not getting enough voltage to the fuel and ignition circuits weird problems can result.

    Cheers,

    Sam
     
  9. Turbopanzer

    Turbopanzer F1 World Champ

    Oct 2, 2011
    11,120
    Under a bonnet
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    Panzer
    Agree. NGK or Bosch.
     
  10. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    romano schwabel
    because the problems are also when idling at 4000 rpm it is a problem of ignition, not of fuel.
     
  11. dwhite

    dwhite F1 Rookie

    Check to make sure you are getting advance on the dizzy. Mine was having the build up of green stuff, would clean it and it would run fine for a bit until the last time it took 6 minutes to refoul. I changed the wires, rotor and cap and has been running better than before by far.
     
  12. John B

    John B Formula 3

    May 27, 2003
    1,564
    NJ
    Thanks for all the great advice guys! I'll dig in today and keep you posted
     
  13. CarbBoxer

    CarbBoxer Formula Junior

    Oct 7, 2008
    844
    Houston
    Full Name:
    PW
    I would certainly check the advance on the distributor. the spring loaded advance can stick.
     
  14. John B

    John B Formula 3

    May 27, 2003
    1,564
    NJ
    OK I give up. What is the trick to get the plug wires out of the distributor cap? They seem locked in somehow, if I pull much harder I'll damage the plug wires...
     
  15. 308mon

    308mon Karting

    Oct 5, 2014
    169
    UK
    Look inside the cap and you should see that there is a slotted brass threaded pin in the center of each rotor contact point. Carefully unscrew the pin and you will then be able to pull out the ignition lead wire.
     
  16. dwhite

    dwhite F1 Rookie

    John, they probably have not been off in a while. Mine were the same, swisting helped loosen them. There is a lot of heat in there the rubber gets quite hard.
     
  17. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    why you want to take out the wires off the cap? you can test the resistance when they are still in
     
  18. John B

    John B Formula 3

    May 27, 2003
    1,564
    NJ
    #18 John B, May 6, 2015
    Last edited: May 6, 2015
    I found an oily residue inside the cap and on the rotor. I have a fresh set standing by so I figured I'd just replace them. The Plug extenders look ok, no perforated holes from arcing. I also have a fresh set of those on standby as well, but I'll reuse the ones that were in there first. If the missing persists I'll swap in the new ones. The advance mechanism moves freely with appropriate spring pressure.

    The tach was acting normally the whole time, no spiking.
    The fuses are old style but clean. I'll give them a good brush up just in case.

    Regarding the plugwires, I could easily peel the plug boots up, but the copper ends of the wires are extremely difficult to remove from the cap. They rotate and move up and down a little, but just wont come out. There is not enough copper exposed to pull on with needle nose pliers. Yesterday I got four wiresout then had to quit. Two came clean and two wires pulled free leaving the copper end pieces in the cap. I'll just go get a plug wire crimping tool and new wire ends and prepare for the worst. Incidentally, the contact point from the plugwire to the copper end piece is just a single fine filament folded back on the plugwire inside the copper end piece, very surprising. I'll continue Thursday.

    308Mon: Nice pin trick!! I'll try that when I resume Thursday.

    Turbo-Joe: How much resistance should I be looking for through the plugwires?
     
  19. dwhite

    dwhite F1 Rookie

    David Feinberg gave me this info for my BBi. "Wires I recall are about 600 ohm/ft."
    extenders 6 - 6.5 ohm.
     
  20. John B

    John B Formula 3

    May 27, 2003
    1,564
    NJ
    #20 John B, May 7, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Well I swapped out my distributor cap, rotor and coil. I also checked the resistance of the spark plug extenders. Most were 12-13 Ohms but one was 0 Ohms, which is a closed circuit. There were also an 18, 15, 14 and 9. I also had a set of twelve extenders standing by on reserve and checked all of them while I was at it. One of the new ones had resistance of 1 (open circuit) so I threw it out. I created a distribution of all 24 extenders by resistance in Ohms . It looks like 12-13 Ohms is the sweet spot so I selected a batch of in that range to install. I also swapped in a set of NGK BPR6EIX Iridum plugs, even though the old BPR6ES looked fine. It started right up and ran great. No more miss above 4,000 and it also pulled cleaner off idle. It's now running better than ever!

    I'm not completely sure whether the problem was the oily residue inside the distributor, spark plug extenders or the coil. For posterity though, I'm going with oily residue inside the distributor. I probably just could have cleaned and re-installed it. I did clean up the old cap and rotor, they look OK and I'll keep them as spares.

    The last pic demonstrates the proper use of ignition repair fluid, the sequence is as follows: Install new plug, insert extender in plug wire, connect plug wire, verify boot is secure over tube, have sip of IPA, repeat...

    Seriously, thanks for all the valuable input, you guys are great!
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  21. mikael82

    mikael82 Formula Junior

    Nov 18, 2007
    869
    Finland
    Full Name:
    Mikael
    Does anyone know: does BB's have resistor or non-resistor extencions from factory?
    308's did not have resistance extensions and all new extensions have resistance, like all new aftermarket BB parts also.
     
  22. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
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    I just checked 2 of my wires. I replaced all wires about 4 or 5 yeras ago and put in some with copper. so they have no resistance. only the extension going directly on the sparkplugs have resistance. both I checked have 13 k-ohm. but this what I did is not original. as I remember the original wires with extensions had between 6 and 14 k-ohm. but I hate those "ohm-wires" and so I put in some with copper inside and only the extensions have resistance. without resistance you would get problems.
     

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