365 GT 2+2 4.4 engine head gaskets

working on a 4.4 365 2 cam motor rebuild and having trouble with head gaskets sealing. Used the Australian head gaskets but only had one with no problem. For the other side used Elwing gaskets from GT Auto in AZ but they leak water. Gaskets are correctly oriented with the cylinder compression ring webbing up towards the head.

#1. What is the proper head torque spec. Seems I have gotten conflicting # -- factory engine manual says 62# but have been told by several "experts" that the block is the same as the Daytona motor and should be torqued to 72#. Re-torqued to 72# helped but still leak (not as much but leak down with in an hour or so.) Leak is not into oil galleries but out through the head and block.

#2 Engine has been completely gone thru. New pistons, rods, mains, crank are all within in spec and true. Block has been line board, and cylinders are all within .001.
Checked block cylinder liner deck height and are .003 +/- .0005 on all cylinders per Ferrari spec. Heads are true and flat and are within .0005.

#3 Australian gaskets have silicon strip on all oil, stud, and water ports while the Elwing have only oil ports. Tried using sealant on Elwing gaskets oil ports and studs but still leak water under 14 lbs pressure with Elwing gaskets. Austrailan gasket are ok. HOWEVER the Aussie gaskets are no longer available and have hunted all over the country and god knows where ever to no avail. Ideas? Suggestions? Torque to 72#? Where can I buy Aussie head gaskets? 6# in the lotto may help as well.. Thanks for any input.

 

Contact Dave Helms Scuderia Rampante in Colorado, USA He has spoken a lot about poor sealing elring HG's. I don't know the specifics but the problem is on both 12 and 8 cylinder models according to him. I know he has fought for a solution but do not know if he ever came up with one. What I don't understand is if the elring HG is the OEM gasket why is it that Ferrari can deliver a car with a good HG but in the aftermarket so many pros claim problems sealing?

So a friend and I do not follow Ferrari's install of dry HG assembly. We have also been told by pros that we are doing it wrong. We liberally spray copper gasket adhesive on the fiber HG's and just bolt them down to spec and we seem to be just fine. We are not supposed to use sealants. We let dry before we test run a motor but usually it take DIY'ers like us a while before we get the cars back together and ready to run that this is not an issue. My pea brain says that when we get that initial seal the 1st heat cycles of expansion and contraction allow the HG to settle in and maintain the seal. It can be a bear to remove heads so glued down. I have hung engines from the head off an engine hoist to break them free once glued with copper. Our annual number of HG done is very low nothing like proshops so maybe we are just getting lucky.

 

Thanks for the response. Put the first one on dry and leaked. On the second shot used copper gasket spray and seemed to have help but still leaked. One the third shot used hi temp red silicon around studs and oil passage holes, copper spray, but wouldn't hold 14 lbs pressure for more than 2 hours. Leak just a little. Re torqued heads to 72# and got it to hold for 4-5 hours. Was about ready to start it up on the test stand and use radiator leak stop. One more Elring gasket left for Tuesdays efforts. Have head on/off in 2-3 hours. Feeling like a pro. Thanks for the info. Rev Grumpy mechanic second class.

 

You have any input that may help?

 

Elring has a new OEM division and a replacement parts division. The replacement parts division is now in Spain and has decided on their own to respec the materials used. The base material on the composition gaskets is too hard and does not allow the wet liners to imbed into the gasket allowing sealing of the passages on the deck of the block. It is not unusual to have not only water leak problems but head warpage problems causing secondary issues.

 

So how are pros dealing with this problem. You can't afford to do it twice and get paid once. Maybe the solution is to get a guy like Cometic of MLS fame to cut us fiber gaskets. They can't be much worse than Elring if those are a fail anyway.

 

This thread to the group. 365, 400, 412

 

You might reach out to Newman in Canada. He resolved the HG issue for me after going through the usual aftermarket gaskets.

 

Where exactly does the leaking occur ? Toward middle deck perhaps ?

 

In my experience it happens anywhere there is a water passage. No pattern to it.

I had an F40 motor that didn't even need to be pressurized. Pour water in and it ran right out on the floor.


Elring

Another once great company on the long list of products that have just turned to crap.


Never had to in the old days but now I pressure test every one. I fill with water and pressurize to 14 lbs and leave it for 48 hours. It needs to not only hold pressure but it has to be completely dry around the total circumference of the head.

 

These blocks distort a great deal when the heads are torqued on. Use whatever torque spec was used when the mains were line honed or you will be creating a problem. You cannot just change head torque on a whim.

 

Intake side of the head between cylinder 8/9 and 9/10. Have one more Elring gasket and plan to use copper spray, high temp silicon seal all water, and oil ports on both sides of the gasket, then put on the head. Pressurize to 14 lbs and see if it holds. Plan to use hot water soak the block and then re-torque the heads. Fire it up and it its leaks, use radiator stop leak. This with be the 5th shot at this sucker. Thanks to all how have given their input. Will post results on Wednesday next week. Jim

 

Thank you Mr. Crall
I don't enjoy your vast experience with variety of Ferrari models & engines, but have discovered & dealt with similar "problems" on "251" engines and was curious about further details on OPs particular case since his engine is similar vintage.
My (limited) experience and research suggests of slightly different reasons & solutions for these woes but I wish learn more before offering my opinions publicly.
I've shared some of my views on these with other, more experienced Ferrari mechanics and engine builders whom have acknowledged my theories sounding logical.
Just trying learn more...
Timo

 

Trial and error it feels like, also known as R&D.

Last 3 sets of cometic mls gaskets were junk. Getting them to fix it is another headache all together. We moved onto to another mfg. Not cheap but so far they have performed without issue for the flat deck engines. Currently working on the wetliner stock setup. As Brian mentioned the protrusion of the liner makes it a bit more complex.

 

Live in Orange County. Would like to talk with you if possible. contact me at [email protected] if interested. Thanks Jim

 

Thanks to smg2 for his "how to" info. Engine is running and back in the car after a year rebuild and a small fortune in parts. The secret to getting the Elring head gaskets to seal is 1) cleans surfaces block and head thoroughly 2) copper spray both sides if the gasket 3)apply Loctite 518 to all water and oil ports on block 4) install gasket *be sure it is on correctly with the web side of the gasket up 5) apply Loctite 518 to all water and oil ports on the head side of the gasket 6) install head and torque to 72 foot pounds. We let this cure over night and then ran the engine thru 6 cycles to operating temp and cool down. Re torque heads and install into the car. Thanks to all for the suggestions and help.
Jim