Out the box track street cars

Race teams want that extra nth of speed, theye ngineer cars to the nth. they dont care about consumables. A street track car is going to be slower by defintion, its heavier with inetrior, runs different gears etc, but that is no reason it should not be able to run at its peak for multiple laps, especialy thta thta is what the manuufacturers would have us believe.

An elise with a pan, pads and rotors can run 9-10/10ths all day long. It does not get hot or suffer. Even the stock calipers are fine. Mods beyond thta are just to make it faster or betetr blalneced.

There are a number of posters here who have taken stock porche and with few mods, basicaly shocks and slicks race them for years.

A propley engineered dual uses street car/ track duty, shoudl not run hot, the suspemsion should not break or wear out too prematurely and if there is any weakness its likely to be stock brakes, which is an easy upgrade.
Cars enginered properly should run for years on track, they dont go as fast as a pure race car, but dont wear out as quickly, none of which means they shoudl not be cabable of sustained laps at peak performance.

Years ago fast road cars never saw the track, roads were open and unpoliced. Today you cant really expoit a car on road, at least not most places. The tackday is the answer to crowded policed roads, trackdays have expolded in popularity. Manufaturers have responded by making or claiming to make cars that are dual use. Some really are, or are with minor mods, others claim to be but really are not.

We are not talking race cars here. We are talkign street/trackday cars, cars that can hold up to a long hard day of tracking. Maybe a GTR cant, because its heavy and gets hot in too many places. There are cars out there there.
I bet a GT4 can do it, I know a lotus elsise and evora can. My bet is a speciale can. we know a C6 z06 with few mods to the brakes can. A 1m can a boss 302 can, a mini can.

Part of the thing is what people think of as the fastest cars often cannot.
Frankly if there were a spec, the mythical 15 lap average manufactuerers would engineers their cars to meet it.

 

No not seperated by cars, in theory they are sperated by driver ability, although there is still perhaps too a broad a range within different run groups.

To me seepration driver ability makes sense. Unpredictable drivers ones who are erratic are far more dangerous than slower cars. Look at lemans there are many specs with a large performance delta in the same race.

Since DE events mostly only allow passing on straights and even then with a pointby, arrogant uskilled drivers powerful cars are the biggest impediment. You are not supposed to pass them on any bends(which could easily be done), they dont see you or give pointbys, yet on the straights they use their power to blast away only to be traffic in your windsheild at the next set of bends. They may jab brakes mid bend, brake too early and awhole plethora of sins. Once you pass them tough they become fading elements in your mirrors. New Vtte drivers seem to be the biggest offenders, but then they usualy overdive and spin.

Years ago I was at a test and tune day at LRP. Everything you can imagine was out there practcing for some races. There was one little green elise, whatever two cars were in front of him when they went into big bend, were so far behing by they time they came round to the main straight that no matter how much power hey had they could not make up the difference. Somwehgre between the entrance to big bend and the main straight they had been passed by that little lotus and he had carries so much speed through the bends that the distance was too large.

Out that day, was everthing from can am cars to porche cup cars and everyhtign in betwen. Each lap that little lotus ate one or two cars.

I went to talk to the lotus driver in the pits, besides a cage the car was in fact stock, not even supercharged. The driver it turns out was the then reigning F3000 chanpion.

Drivers make far more difference than cars. Yes he was passing on bends etc, he could slay giants because he knew how tro drive so well he just carried way more speed through the bends and out. He also commented on what a "great little car that is" I was inspired.

Its why bought an elise, after I saw what it could do figuring its best to learn to drive it decenty well before gettign somethign with more Hp. I had already raced singe seaters, but an elsie affirds so much more seat time, and requires less comitment.
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These days I am faster through the bends than any track prepepd cayman(non street legal arrives on trailer). And while I am not remotely in the same league as the reigning spec miata champion, because the elise has more power and blalnce I am quicker than him round some bends at LRP, and quicker than the fastest spec miata around the Glenn. For sure the spec miata champion could easily shave 2 secs of my elise time in my car, but for an amateur I am close to my goal, and laptimes are consistent lap after lap. So its time for somethign with more oomph for big tracks.

At Thompson or NYST even though, the lotus will be the one run, it will be more fun, and faster on those tight tracks. Even at LRP maybe the pace woudl be a little slower but the challenge and skill will be more rewardign in the lotus.

The Glenn Monticello, bring on the hp.

Its like any sport, the guy with the lsser equipment but the best skill will still smoke you. i am happy just to be consistent in my laptimes improve and beat my personal goals. I may be faster than many, but then there are 70yo olds in track prepped e36 bmw who can smoke me.

You dont have to win the new york marathon, its pretty good just to complete it and make a respectable time.

 

Simply not true, pads a sump and an elsie is good to go all day for years 90-100% effort. A friend has over 50K miles 40K are track, car never been apart.

 

The progenator of the breed, the 250SWB if they could build such a dual use machine then, it can be done now.

 

Aren't we all.

For the past trwo decades I have used similar logic with my wife. Its best to marry a car guy, the cars are a great other women substitute for the male pyche, and therefore worth the $ I spend.
Plus since one car i have had longer than her, its s ign of my great loyalty,

 

I always heard the scud is great.

About the M3/4. A friend who was a bmw club racer for many years, had afew e36 race cars, plus the v8 m5 street car, and then an e92 m3 got the new m3(4door) last fall. Saw him this weekend, he said it was so remote, so anodyne, so divorced from the road that he traded it. He had especialy poor things to say about the eps, and while he said it was certainly powerful, dindnt love the lag with the stick.

I dont DD a fast car, have an equinox for strees free all season use(its actualy pretty good) and occasionaly the e46m3, which is not exactly a track paragon either, at least in stock form, but is good on the road although also a bit divorced.

Course I am the lunatic fringe, like my machines raw viceral, hard with mircormeter reponses. Its whgy i love my elise.
Just finishing up the build of the car below. Its not exactly out the box though, taken 18 months to get this far, but seemed the best option after trying a number of so called out the box cars.(MP12 458) which compared to an elise seemed very lacking. If a 997 RS 4.0 or even a 3.8 was still in prod and attainable might have gone that route.
Nowadays maybe a z06 or cayman Gt4 could fit the bill, since I am a big stick fan.
The Gt40 is street legal so I guess it counts.
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EPS is electric power steering as applies to the new M3/M4. Personaly I find them to be acurate, but inconsistrent in boost which is weird, others say they have no feeback and are artificial.. But then the only Ps system I felt had feedback and real precision was the 997 Gt3. If there is feedback in my e46 m3 its so muted you need to be a braille reader.
In any event that is the main arguement coupled with genral isolation against the new M3 from those that have tried it. fast cars shoudl feel alive.

If the M2 is like the old 1m it will be great. Interesting that a 1m is worth more now than new.
I dont know that viceral cars wouldnt sell, I do know they dont make them, because more people will buy paper spec cars so why bother. Although the continued sucess of the miata and now the cayman Gt4(which is sold out and has doubled cayman sales) indiactes there is a healthy if limited market for raw viceral machines, where manufacturers bother, even the 4c seems to be sellign well.

Put another way, how many more 458's could ferrari sell if they offered a real raw version too, not a faster one like the speciale, maybe less powerful so the Tq works with a stick and proper track setup.

I dont buy the arguement that ferrari sells all the cars it wants to anyway. For the past 18 months you could order a 458 at list with less than 6 months wait. Plus ferrari reduced prod to "maintain exclisivity", or had to. A raw car from ferrari woudl also restore some cred to the "brand" amogst drivers and give ferrari a core cliental. My guess is we will see such a machine. You knwo a car thta feels alive at all speeds.

As to stearing the 458 was the most articficial of the lot, but its really quick ratio was a good workaround in its own way. The 458 great motor, fantastic styling, a renaisance for ferrari styling wise(somehtign the 488 seems not to follow), but the 458 is in the end a techno car and all that implies. The failure of the mp12, too techno to the extent the subjective bits are too lost. But then Mcklaren seems to be learning with each model.

Audi can get away with techno on the r8 as can porche with the 991, their clients are commuters. But Ferrari Mckllaren, they need some serious cred, as does lambo.

Porche seems to get all this with the Gt4 and to an extent the Gt3. although imo they lost the plot witht he 991 gt3, and corospondignly they are available off the floor at msrp.

Counter to all what I am sayign is the lack of sales sucess of the z28, but maybe its too heavy to be taken seriously and too hard for street people. lets see how the new camaro does and the Gt350. My bet is former buyers of M cars are going to be findign a new product.

Meanwhile yeah after tryign everything I spent my money elsewhere. Course badge means little to me, its all about the drive. Gt40 for big track, elsie- small tracks and backroads, with the BBi for big roads and the e46 for going places fast works well. Still a 997 Rs4.0 would probably cover all those bases in one machine, or so I like to think. Maybe when they do a cayman GT4rs with the Gt3 motor at 2800lbs, we will be there. technicaly its possible.

BMW well I can fantasise about an I8 body with an e92 v8, that would truly be the new M1. Sadly they dont make such a beast.

 

Not quite out the box, close on a 2 year build, but technicaly street legal, new, durable on track all day long, relatively easy and inexpesive to maintain. My personal choice after finding moderns to be too computer aided, lacking feedback and heavy.

the poor mans F40.

The build/assemble your own option has many choices these days and is a thriving buisness. I guess since the F40 and 997 Gt3 oems dont offer products that work for this client base. Plus its fun to build to measure as long as you can resist the need for immediate gratification many car buyers have..
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