Spurious electronics... Ban the lot.

In most countries, but not all, the consumer choice between petrol of Diesel power wasn't based on efficienty or pollution ground, but almost decided by taxation.

Some government (France, for example) did favour Diesel by taxing petrol more at the pump. With the price difference (1/3 less), and the extra mileage (10 to 20% more), it's a no brainer that most of the park is Diesel. Now politicians have decided to punish car drivers for the mistakes governments have made.

I am not denying that particules may be carcinogenic, but so many things these days are health hazard that I think the risk is exagerated, probably to suit the green lobby.

 

They don't have fenders or headlights and both are those compulsory on street cars, too. I don't see what one thing has to do with the other.

It's never been otherwise. No one would race with open wheels and an open cockpit if they weren't forced to. Or tiny wheels. Or tiny engines. Street cars have had all those performance advantages for decades.

 

We shouldn't confuse safety systems like ABS and Traction Control, with accessories like lights on street cars.

You are right, open-wheel and open cockpit are relics of the past that rules still insist to impose on F1 when they are completely obsolete. But at the same time, the same rules drive F1 towards increasingly complicated electronic systems which add nothing to the quality of the race. There is anachronism there ...

 

Because braking is a true racing skill. That is why you see the best drivers in the world still lock up tires and flat spot them. ABS totally eliminates that skill, so I agree with removing it. I can brake more effectively with ABS; but without it is far more fun and rewarding.

TC got so bad in F1, and the self-leveling/computer suspensions, that certain drivers/cars could literally keep the car floored and just go through the turns. That takes away too much of the actual skill required, so they need to strike a balance.

TC on cars is an interesting topic. It is safer in most cases, but it actually teaches people to drive cars incorrectly. Take away the traction control and many will kill themselves...and the systems do disable when say a simple $50 wheel speed sensor goes south; until it is fixed. Slippery slope making cars into appliances.

 

FYI for those that don't know...Audi has an engine that runs on 100% synthetic diesel. Ingredients in the formula? Water. Air. : )

 

Just as a basis for comparison, the WEC cars have even more honestly. They have adjustable ABS, traction control, and probably more systems I'm not aware of...

I think the hard part is striking the balance...which is why you new tech introduced and then sometimes removed after a period of time.

If you ban it all, then you kill trickle-down technology IMHO.

 

To me, both ABS and TC are SAFETY systems than would make racing safer.
Anything that makes racing safer should be welcomed in motor racing, that's my opinion.
If going through corners gets too easy, reduce downforce and tyre width to restore the skills needed.

As for the lack of these systems making racing less fun and rewarding, well, what about paddle-shift gearchanges, or power steering that has been allowed, or carbon disc brakes?
Surely removing those would also make racing more fun and rewarding, no?

F1 rules and regulations are a bunch of contradictions; on one hand the legislator allows some advanced technologies, on the other, it sticks to traditions.

 

Synthetic fuel is not new: Hitler fuelled his Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht with it.

But how much does it cost to produce it?

 

WEC is the way to go.

 

They only have a prototype engine, and only they are producing it, so I don't think anyone knows yet. But Audi obviously think there is a shot of it being viable, else they wouldn't waste the money. We'll have to wait and see.

 

BMW has spent a lot of money with hydrogen.

Some car companies have involved ther R&D departments with alternative fuel projects.

I can tell you that when I was with SHELL 15 years ago, they well researching alternative fuels too.

 

Eeeek - yah I fundamentally disagree with you. So by that rationale, you want fenders and closed cockpits too? At that point it is just a car really. If you are going to close the cockpit, it might as well have pillars in the case of a rollover...so it basically just becomes like any other car. Once it has all that, then you can rub...and they will rub each other for position because they can. That's why touring cars are a different style of driving and more exciting to some. So you kill the F1 formula and it ceases to exist.

On the other systems - not really. P/S is really a function in racing of the weight and setup of the car...if it is light enough, and the tires aren't too wide, then you don't need it. It doesn't tell you when to turn, or make you better at turning...it just let's you do it so your arms don't fall off. Let's not forget most of these guys are pretty small. Sure they are in shape, but they are still small men. Carbon disks just work more efficiently, the skill required to use them is still the same. Paddle shifts - yah that would make it more difficult for sure, but I don't think it would work well unless you raise the redlines on the engines again - they would be shifting non-stop. So that is also related to the tech in the engine IMHO.

Ah - new regulations and technology vs traditions. Every *extreme* sport is struggling with this...the NFL is a prime example. How do you keep the excitement of the violence without destroying all of the player's lives after football? You can only do so much without ruining the tradition of the game. After that, it is an assumed risk of the participants. All of these drivers know what is at risk.

 

Yah, I have a distant family member that worked on hydrogen at BMW actually. The technology is sound, but the containment was the issue from what I understand.

I don't think it helps that the US gov gave all these incentives for electric vehicles to consumers...and to companies.

The most hilarious part as it relates to the US? A huge portion of our power grid is powered by coal burning plants. Just idiotic.

I like the direction BMW is going now with electric+petrol+lightweight in the same car. We'll see where it goes...

 

F1 has become boring.

 

Would you say that LMP1 cars that have enclosed wheels and closed cockpits rub each other a lot? I don't see it. Touring cars do it because they are much slower, but you don't take liberties at 200+mph ...

In the long run, I see F1 getting ever closer in configuration to LMP endurance cars, just for safety reasons. Look how the latest Indy cars have now enclosed rear wheels.
Enclosed wheel existed on some GP cars in pre-war, and even in some post-war cars (Mercedes, Vanwall experimented with it)

 

Power steering makes the car easy to drive, because there is less physical effort involved. Therefore the element of strength and stamina has been eliminated. GP cars used to be difficult and tiring to drive, but no more. Look at Rosberg or Hamilton emerging from their car after a GP, fresh without a pearl of sweat on their brows, and compare that with photos of winners of the past!

Steel disc brakes increase the braking distance (allowing more overtaking), and require more pressure, therefore testing the driver's strength too.

Manual gear shift was one of the skill that has been completely eradicated by the paddle shift. Not only they don't miss a gear or over-rev their engine now, but the art of double-declutching is unknown to the new generation.
Also, if they have to shift non-stop, that will limit their speed!

 

Well, i think sometimes basics are always better. Saves costs, provides excitement.

It's silly to think F1 has any road relevance. Why should it? We have Le Mans for that. I think the only thing should be road relevant is safety. How can that be transferred into modern cars. That sort of thing.

 

It's interesting you mention LMP1 cars. Do you think they are safer? They actually aren't if you look at the fatality statistics. Those things rip to shreds in accidents. F1 cars, save the head being exposed, are actually incredibly safe. Perhaps the bodies of the LMP1 cars prevent launching, but they are not really any safer. They rub in NASCAR at ludicrous speeds. It was an intentionally dramatic example though...to demonstrate the end of the slippery slope : )

The new indy bodykits are a mixed bag IMO. I don't think they have demonstrated increased safety yet. Yes the rear wheels are enclosed, but they are also fragile. We've had fans hit by exploding pieces of carbon fiber this year - very scary. Plus they still don't know why exactly they were flipping at Indy. Understood on the history, but I don't think people really associate pre-war with F1 IMHO.

 

Absolutely true

 

I don't have an issue if they take away power steering honestly, but it doesn't bother me that they have it either. I've driven cars with power steering that gave me just as intense a workout as ones without. It was in a different part of my body, but still intense. Indycar has no power steering....shrug.

You sure about steel brakes vs carbon? I'm not. The brake pressure is a function of your foot pressure, yes, but also the way the system is constructed with hydraulics - master cylinder(s) size, etc. For instance, they can setup the car for different pedal pressure for different drivers. It is not a fixed amount for steel vs carbon. Carbon is better at dissipating heat, so they should fade less, etc, but I don't think the physical demands are more with *modern* steel brakes vs carbon - but there are obviously advantages to carbon. Now, the cars from the 60s - yah, I've driven those in a simulator (Lotus 49) and you have to stand on the brakes and it is pretty terrifying. I'm sure you are correct on the braking distance; if not at race start, once those steel brakes warm up the carbon should outperform. But the driver is still managing the tires on the road and trying to achieve optimum braking. With ABS, he will just smash the pedal to the floor and a computer will do everything.

A lot of guys still come up through formula Fords or similar and learn shifting. Limit the speed - not following you here. You mean they will spend more time shifting, so they won't go as fast, so it is safer?

 

I think the latest LMP1 cars are now safer than F1.
I don't know what recent statistics say otherwise.
They have to go through crash tests as rigourous as F1.
Also they have a full safety cage that protects better than an open cockpit.

Drivers have come out of really big crash with LMP1 without being killed, and they race on some tracks that are faster than GP circuits too.
True that they scatter a lot of carbon bodywork when they crash, but the survival cell protects the driver quite well.

 

It's Jackie Stewart who remarked that in his days, drivers made sure they had done most of their downshifts before a corner, because they needed both hands on the steering wheel. Sometime, they had to block-change several gears before the corner, to avoid having one hand off the wheel for too long.

He illustrated that by cockpit footage from his days compared to now on a track like Monaco. Now, the down changes are done by paddle shift with both hands on the steering wheel, automatically without any clutch action, leaving the driver to concentrate on cornering.

Before, with manual change, a missed downshift could give you a bunch of neutral (not very good to retard the car), or worst over-rev the engine, block the rear wheels, etc.

It certainly reduces you speed if you have to concentrate on several things at the same time, braking, down-shifting and cornering whilst trying to synchronise everything not to buzz the engine or lock up the tyres.

F1 now are just too easy to drive.

 

I was going off the ultra-scientific method of simply googling for lmp1 deaths : ) As I'm sure you are aware, the last fatality in F1 was in 1994 with Senna. Now, one could definitely argue that Bianchi is essentially a death as sad as that sounds. I think it is true, so I will give you that. But there have been quite a few LMP1 deaths since 1994. Now that I search again, I'm having problems finding what I thought I had found - which was a few fatalities. I believe an Audi driver died (Alboreto), but that was in testing I believe. So I'm not sure what the stats show to be honest. Someone who follows LMP1 more closely could probably comment.