car design thread

The original Espace and Jeep Cherokee that Renault did were fine designs. As was the original Clio.

 

The Citroen DS is on my list of the 10 best automotive designs of all time
Early Citroens, Voisin, and Bugatti weren't too shabby either regarding their designs
haven't been consistent of late IMO

 

Serious, if controversial, question:

How do you separate a car design from a constructed car? For example, cars like the DeLorean DMC12 looked really cool, but the company had no money and from an engineering, performance, and handling point of view it was a rolling disaster as a sports car. The blunt aesthetics of old Mercedes models became synonymous with quality because the company's engineering was amongst the best in the world - and people looked at them and thought they were classy. Yet of some of those designs had been put forth by other marques, they might have been deemed boring.

Car companies want their product to look recognisable, so they don't tend to make total departures from their historical design language and instead evolve it slowly. Obviously, you're going to know what company is making the car when you look at it. So, how do you dismiss the reputation of the company? Renault and Peugeot have been making increasingly cheap cars in the UK for years, that folks buy on credit via the manufacturer - so Peugeot and Renault are really loans companies trying to make something they can attach a loan onto to sell you. The real product is the loan and the car is an accessory. Consequently, I cannot look at the styling of many modern French cars without thinking it's a cheap, unreliable, awful to drive box, with snazzy bodywork and a loan attached.

Or do you dissociate the company image from the design at all? Since it is all integral to how a car makes you feel when you look at it?

All the best,
Andrew.

 

A complex question requiring a complex response, but I'll give it a go.

I can only speak from personal experience and observations over 40 years, but every car company and their respective design staff are unique, but they still share some basic tenets.

The design team will usually try to communicate the corporation/brand's message through design. The reputation of the company is always evolving. Look how long it took Audi to recover from the unintended acceleration debacle. But I would guess that the Audi design staff just kept at it to make their design language stand out in spite of their public woes. Today Audi is one of the top design products IMO.

Even when a company is forced or chooses to compete at the low end of the price spectrum, the designer's job is always to give the best possible design solution given the budget constraints. Sometimes successfully.....sometimes not so much.
When Lexus first entered the market in the late '80's they chose Mercedes as their target. They designed their entry to look like a Mercedes.......even if they would never admit it . The design had no relationship to Toyota cars at there time, but their strategy worked well. Nissan/Infinity chose to do a unique design for their Lux entry with very little success. Now certainly their were a myriad number of reasons for the success & failure of the two brands, but the public responded to Lexus and rejected the Infinity.Both Toyota & Nissan had been masters of the lower end of the market and were trying to move to the upper end. I believe people buy Lexus today because of the brand reputation....not design.

I believe in the end however, it's the brand and how the brand is perceived. As you pointed out, some of the early Benz' weren't exactly paragons of 'high style', but the brand overcame the design's shortcomings. As you point out, had some other brand had the same design, they most likely would have been rejected. I can't tell you how many consumer clinics I've attended when we would get one score with the vehicle unbadged and then when we would badge them, the brand would be the kiss of death, and the scores would plummet.

I'm not certain that answered your question, but I gave it a shot

 

"I am only an elite expert"?

Thanks John, that does actually answer it very well. I wasn't expecting it to be a simple answer - oversimplification might have lost the important nuances. I do appreciate your taking the time to explain it.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

speaking of the initial lexus and infinity luxury car launches, a couple things still resonate with me after all these yrs.
lexus highlighted their design by balancing a nickle/quarter on a running engine to demonstrate smoothness. very impactful.
infinity highlighted their japanese heritage with intricate engravings in the interior and door handles. not quite so important to the western world.
was it all just a marketing blunder??

 

I also remember those 2 launches as well. The 2 couldn't have been more different.
In hindsight (always 20/20 ) Lexus played up to the American desire for quality with the look of familiarity (Mercedes). Infiniti was going for the 'story'....design uniqueness, ambiance, Japanese Zen as you point out........and it never seemed to resonate with the American luxury buyer, for whatever reason.
Today, they aren't anywhere near close, with Lexus the clear winner in more ways than one.
The buying public are a fickle bunch indeed
But I believe your assessment is spot on. marketing played a large role in the success or lack thereof of the 2 brands. Quality never seemed to be an issue.

 

Prewar there's no shortage of great French designs.

The DS was literally transcendent.

 

With pens for hire moving from company to company the days of "authentic" marque style are over. Without one person's taste determining style we may get individually great cars but no organic marque identity. Bill Lyons knew what a Jaguar looked like.

 

Just like Bill Mitchell knew what GM cars looked like.........most of the time
Pininfarina had the Ferrari look down for most of their history with the marque
Them days is gone


Design has become democratized and global so that individual national differences have all but disappeared. The Germans run the British brands, the Italians are running an American brand, etc. etc.

 

You'd think that Apple should have shown how marketable a distinctive well executed look is.

 

Yet it seems like Apple is also losing its way

 

Looks like a next gen Viper to me.

If I ignore the Alfa grill, looks Japanese to me. Particularly Subie/Mitsu

 

Not because of the way their products look though.

Apple is in transition and they've got a couple of bucks stashed to bide them over the interim.
I'm not worried quite yet.

 

Lexus just followed Toyota owners upmarket as they aged. Reliable, unexciting cars with more luxury trappings. Infiniti thought that there was a significant market of people who thought about and appreciated design.

 

originally lexus offered a v8 version of an s class mercedes but much cheaper and they emphasized luxury.
infinity seemed to go after the sporty bmw crowd with an upscale v8 of the 5 series.
luxury won out. even my mom came home from the "hairdresser" saying so and so got a LEXUS.

 

I have to say that part of the problem with new Italian design is not the Italian's fault. The Italian's used to be one of the only ones that wanted to have a high performance or sporty look on most of their cars. Now everybody does. You say Lexus is a luxury, but most of their new designs look very sporty. Even mini vans try to look sporty now. Back in the pre 1980's regular cars looked like regular cars.


Also the small details on Italian cars and even Ferrari's are not that original anymore. Look at the wheels for example. When was the last time Ferrari made a wheel that really spoke Ferrari?? Ever since the original star wheels got axed(F40 or before style) they have had a hard time coming up with a signature design. Remember when Campagnolo came up with a very Italian looking wheel every week?? Now new Italian stuff is either uninspired or retro.

 

Au contraire I do think Apple has lost its way design-wise. There is nothing revolutionary coming out of there anymore.

Not predicting a fall (see Microsoft still chugging away), but I think Apples glory days are over.

Dont mean to hijack.

 

Yeah, threads never wander.


I'm talking about product style more than product concept. Apple stuff still looks great.

 

Annual S rudest show at the Royal College of Art,London.
Some very cool ideas.
Nothing dull & boring

In Pictures: RCA Vehicle Design Degree Show 2015 « Form Trends

 

such a sad state of affairs for such a great and storied brand Pininfarina

http://www.cardesignnews.com/articles/news/2015/06/mahindras-plan-to-buy-pininfarina-falls-through/
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Guigaro was smart to sell out a while back.

The plan for Pf must not have been too good if only 1 of the 4 banks was willing to accept the terms. Not sure who they can get to buy them when they lost money and have a big load of debt.

Strange that next to the article was an employment ad for Pf in China. That is real encouraging - go to work for someone that is in the midst of flirting with bankruptcy or shut down. Accept the job but don't unpack the bags or sign a long term lease!

 

such is the car biz

 

I had no idea they were in such serious trouble. Pininfarina have designed a lot of my favourite cars over the years.

Is the debt partially the result of Ferrari internalising their design process and not seeking the services of external design houses?

All the best,
Andrew.

 

I've been told it was a number of things building up over the years.
But Ferrari's departure certainly din't help the situation.
Once the manufacturing portion went away, it was very difficult to pay the bills. The design service alone just couldn't handle the weight alone
ask Bertone & ItalDesign.....