488 GTB (458 replacement)

My feelings also...esp the minimal styling changes. So far, not enough to sway me.

 

I think you're right, although I guess there's a large audience that just wants to go fast!! One thing I take away from all the reviews is that the car is much easier to control at speed which, may be a key selling point to many new Ferrari customers.

 

Yes I actually know that. I should have proofread my paragraph. Saw that mistake AFTER I came back to the thread. My mistake there

 

Is that actually confirmed? That was only mentioned in one review that I'm aware of...

 

I was under the impression that the 488 redlined at 8000 rpm?

 

One anecdote. I drove a 12C and 458 back to back about a dozen laps each on the track. Also drove the Aventador, Gallardo, Turbo S, R8, 430 about 8 to 10 laps each too same day. It's the best way to compare and contrast these cars as they are meant to be driven.

The standouts of the day by far were the 458 and the 12C. I thought they were comparable and stood WELL ABOVE the other cars mentioned, especially at speed on the track.

I have not yet driven the 650S which many say is another level of performance over the 12C. If so, that would put it above the 458 I'd imagine as the 12C I felt was so very close to the 458. They felt very similar to me on track. There was not a moment on the track where I felt the 12C was lagging in power, handling, response or sound when compared to the 458. The 12C felt REALLY GOOD. The 458 just a tiny bit better. Also at speed, you typically are going to keep the revs always above 3k anywhere on the track so there simply is no lag in these newer cars.

From the numbers on the 488 I can already see it pulling just ahead of the 650S on the track perhaps the same way the 12C barely was one half beat behind the 458 for me. The power curve looks incredible and exciting. The new side slip program I think is going to be a show stealer and will probably again be the thing that just nudges out that 650S. Even if these two cars were dead even on every track the Ferrari still wins in the end because let's face it, it is a Ferrari.

 

You totally don't need turbo or side slip program to lap faster than 650S. The 458 Challenge which has the same hp with 458, lap the Fiorano faster than LaFerrari. And the 458 Challenge SOUNDS VERY GOOD.

 

I believe redline is actually 8000

 

A v10 or v12 rear mid-engine with a spider option. Audi R8, Lambo etc.

 

In 7th gear, 1st and Second are 7400 and 3rd not much more.

 

Unfortunately you can't drive it on the road - track specific - but your point is a good one. I'm surprised that Ferrari hasn't gone for lighter weight cars and improved aero etc. to reduce consumption. I'm not an expert but I suspect emissions figures for turbo cars are nonsense as most of the time they're not driven when the positive emission effects of the turbo are realised. Perhaps someone more knowledgable could comment?

 

From what source? Any video showing it? Is the tach display dynamic to reflect this?

 

That sound
http://youtu.be/pdqBBRC_9Bw

 

...when driven by a professional racing driver. It also has slicks which will, absent no other changes, drop seconds off of a lap time. Most people don't have the skills to drive a car like that with no assistance. Hard to compare race cars and street cars.

 

Didnt the gt2/3 version of the 458 have a lowered redline?

 

My point is that the main reason Ferrari uses turbo is NOT to improve the performance of the car. Some people say that without turbo, Ferrari is getting difficult to match 650S, etc track time. That is completely wrong. Some people also say that with turbo, now the car is more fun to drive. This is also completely wrong. Lap time has nothing to do with turbo or NA. And there are many stuff more important than power to make the car more fun to drive, number 1 is light weight.
The main benefit of turbo is that small engine can generate huge power, which is much cheaper to build, BUT the sound it produces will be very bad compared to NA with same power range, and the pedal feel will be less engaging. For SUV or daily driver, this is a right solution. For fun and passion, IMO, this is wrong.

 

Of course it is, while also allowing for the idiotic emissions standards which don't actually test emissions properly. They added 100HP and increased the amount of usable power band. You may not enjoy using it as much as the 458 engine, the throttle response is not as crisp, but the performance is superior when used properly.

How is that completely wrong? They cannot put slicks on a roadcar, slam it on a custom setup suspension, strip out all the insulation to make it lightweight, etc. You need to make sacrifices for a road car that needs to appeal to more than just hardcore enthusiasts. If they go to a real carbon mid-engine car in the future, then they could deal with less power from the motor. For instance, BMW M just recently said that 600HP will be the peak for their engines now and they will focus on dropping weight. We'll see if Ferrari follows suit; I would assume so, but it isn't in this generation of cars.

Honestly, I haven't heard more fun. I've heard the SSC2 is amazing, and I believe that.

Of course lightweight is the key, but the car weighs the same as the 458 (actually a pinch less supposedly). I also agree it has nothing to do with NA or turbo - it has to do with usable powerband. This is where the 488 has more than the 458.

But you are acting like Ferrari has no emissions standards to meet. I don't get that. That is also an oversimplification of the benefits of a turbo. It also gives massive torque even given the exact same displacement. That torque is what pulls you out of corners.

I agree with you on sound and throttle response. Obviously you can tell that Ferrari does as well which is why they have focused development here to do their best. This is supported by all the media they have released around these areas.

The 488 will be a daily driver for many, just as the 458 is for many. I'm more of a hardcore driver myself, but I also use to be a product manager. I guarantee you that hardcore enthusiasts do not represent the majority of Ferrari 488 buyers.

 

Ferrari should stop looking an Mclaren lap times and stay with NA engine, if pistons would be too big in V8 then move into V10, Gallardo is best prove that you can put V10 in very small car

 

Well said !!

 

Which is why they can make about anything they want. People don't drive them anyway.

So, what do they want?

They want it to be exclusive
They want it to be beautiful
They want it to sound good

Speed? Who cares? The speed limit is 65 anyway.

As to this "emissions" reason to go turbo -- so why is Audi sticking with the V-10 in the Hurracane? Is there something they know Ferrari doesn't?

The reason they went turbo is to be able to keep up with McLaren. Every two years they will increase the boost and not have to spend a ton of money in R and D to keep up.

 

Let's summarize a few 488 GTB fact's:
- more efficient tt/high rev engine with more torque/more hp
- better brakes
- better aerodynamics
- optimized assistance systems
- optimized interior
- better performance figures in all relevant aspects (better acceleration, better braking characteristics, higher cornering speed/more stable handling)

The rest is a matter of taste.

Also a fact: it is not a 458 competitor it is its successor and yes, it is a new Ferrari.

I warmly welcome this car in the Ferrari family!

Regarding the "redline": important ist the 458 has its 570hp at 9'000 rpms and its torque maximum with 540Nm at 6'000 rpms. The 488 GTM has 670hp at 8'000 rpms and its torque maximum with 760Nm at 3'000 rpms.

Therefore two total different engine characteristics, each with its own pros and cons.

But it is obvious, the 488 engine is much much stronger and much "wider usable" than the 458 engine is.

 

I think you are confusing variable torque with variable redline. The 488 utilises the former.

 

I also think the McLaren factor was the biggest reason for the move to turbocharging. I have also heard Lambo will drop the V10 for the mid life update in favour of turbos. From what I've read and watched I think the 488 will be better in all the key areas than the 650s, including handling, response and even acceleration.

Is acceleration the only thing? No, but as the video below shows the gap even the MP4-12c can pull on a 458 is a little excessive. IMO Ferrari had to do something major and I think what they have come up with is pretty special. The sort of throttle response times that they have managed are quite simply amazing - I think they deserve some credit for what they have achieved to eliminate most (not all) of the downsides of turbocharging.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDsOkS1OErY

 

Don't forget the alpha males factor!

"They want it to be exclusive
They want it to be beautiful
They want it to sound good..."

and
They want it to have the fastest
They want it to have the strongest
They want it to have the best performing
They want it to have the newest...

That's all ok and legitimate, we are talking about a Men's toy.

 

Of course a turbocharged car can be more fun to drive than a naturally aspirated car... Of course. Its all about preference!

Take a GT3 and than a GT2. Many people will chose the GT2 over the GT3 because of the turbo'd engine and the power it creates. Than you have die hard GT3 fans that prefer the N/A feel. I am honestly not a fan of N/A cars unless they are big power houses like the F12.

Also take an F40 and an F50. Watch the Chris Harris youtube vid where he drives them both and you tell me which one he looks like he is having more fun with... Its all about preference. I will take a turbocharged car over a naturally aspirated car every day. The linear power as appose to the turbo feel when the boost hits is night and day in comparison to driving feel.

But again, different strokes for different folks. I LOVE the fact that Ferrari is coming with turbocharged cars. I know some people won't but many people will!