which is odd considering that the price of Enzos in recent European auctions seem to be trending downward
Hey I just realized something that nobody has touched on. It's something I learned when I sold my cars.There is one factor that dictates the buying and selling of Ferraris more than anything we have mentioned in this thread. The Wife
I think the party is over, prices are lower, but lots of inventory being held so we dont see the lower numbers yet.
+1 IF these cars are destined to continue going up $20,000 a month, why are so many people selling?? Look at ebaymotors inventory of air cooled 911 turbos. IT is astounding. I counted 14 just in 993 turbos alone. Look at 512ms. They're being passed around like crazy. Very seldom are they for sale, but now there's always a few lurking around I've never seen anything like it in my life. Everyone is seeking validation from everyone else. Buy this, sell this, what's next? The market talks. IF the collector market and enthusiasts (not speculators) believes that these are going to continue to rise, why did so many sell all their cars? Why are they almost exclusively all for sale by dealers and not owners? The answer is pretty obvious IMO. The actual collectors and enthusiasts smelled smoke in the room months ago, and have already left. The dealers are having such a field day with it that they don't notice. It isn't the first time that they haven't had the foresight. They will ride it out until it ends, just like last time. Just checked the inventory on the Monterey scene. An astonishing amount of rare Ferraris for sale at one time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHwIWFZKfKw My favorite rationalization given in this video is the following. "The population is increasing rapidly, and will continue to do so. I see no slow-down in the market for these cars." It may seem like a ridiculous comparison, but it is somewhat similar to the sports card trading bubble in the early nineties I experienced as a kid. Everyone was excited about it. And then the prices of the packs of cards got so ludicrous, that everyone just stopped collecting. The most common reason was "It just isn't fun anymore" Now almost all of the cards of that era, expensive ones included, are hardly worth anything. Also, the vintage, rare cards that were worth tons of money were all thrown out in the past, and were few and far between. Which is what made them valuable. The newer cards were ridiculously high in production, everyone had access to them. But judging on the prices of the vintage cards, people kept buying them up at the peak of it with the belief that one day they would be worth a fortune, just like the old ones...
Is it odd that despite all my skepticism about the market that I have an urge to get an XJ220 at the price points being thrown around? It stands out as an underappreciated car at a time when everyone is jumping onto all these other cars. Maybe that is the biggest red flag... that a car like that can go so unnoticed vs. some other cars that are attracting so much attention. I mean, a car with sub-300 production run, that was iconic, that had real performance records to back it up, and with exterior styling that would hold up today. (Yes, I recognize that A) it underperformed vs. how it was promoted B) reliability, reliability, reliability C) overshadowed by other cars around its time and D) a lofty exercise from a brand that was in its death throes....)
Dont forget v6 that sounds like a bucket of bolts, cheapo interior. But epic performanvce low prod anologue etc.
Agreed -- notice my commentary was specific to the exterior The V6, IIRC, was not the engine they originally had in mind for the car... and they made a bold move in calling it their top speed target (220mph) and never reached it (210? 215?) I don't think I'd ever buy a car solely for investment purposes, and I don't have the optimal place to park it anyways... but certainly stands out to me on a relative basis at least, when you put it beside something like the F50...
Dave, I think you answered your own question. As time marches on we separate the desirable ones. I think the Jag just isn't that desirable. They could have made 3 of them, the values probably would be where they are because at least to my mind, that car was a huge disappointment and thats how I know it, and how I think the market values it. On the other hand, its a Jaguar, it has that styling, etc and that is what makes it worth more than a used X-type Jag. When you look at Ferraris, especially the supercars, you really can't compare to another brand. You have to stay within Ferrari otherwise you are going to make some expensive mistakes. So lets come back to this thread in 6,12,18 months time and see whats happened. My prediction at least for the next year is we will be more or less the same as the last 18 months or so- maturing/ cooling market. But I wouldn't say the "party's over"/ correction coming. Not now anyway.
Let's be fair... the F50 was a relative disappointment. It followed on the heels of the F40, but about 8 years later, had an equal or lower top speed, and an equal or worse quarter mile time. Visually (this is personal preference) it didn't hold up like the F40 does, and it never became an iconic car. The XJ220 held the world top speed record for years and only underwhelmed relative to its initial hype. I think it was "almost" the right car, at the absolute worst time for Jaguar, and it sunk pretty hard. Cars in their own time, however, are not always as appreciated as they become. The 993 was not nearly the sales success of cars that followed (including the 996) but we know how it is viewed today. How has the last 18 months been a cooling market btw? It has been red hot and we are near the absolute peak prices. Comparing between brands is entirely fair as well... Ferraris are truly blue chip, but sometimes that particular "bucket" gets too hot. I enjoyed watching an old clip of Jeremy Clarkson reviewing either the 348 or 355 (I believe the former) and commenting on the crazy price for a 250 GTO ($3mm at the time). There were classic buggatis in that time frame that were priced higher than even the GTO. Today, however, Ferraris almost always top auctions... the relative prices have changed to be more in favor of Ferrari. I think the nice thing about the XJ220 is that you get a remarkable car, with extreme low production, at a time when it remains underappreciated. In 30 years I would guess that the relative gap between the XJ220 and F50 will have entirely closed... but I'm not buying for investment purposes I enjoy the debate and I may of course be wrong. If the market corrects over the next 18 months, I can't see that XJ220 going below $150k, so I am guessing there will be some major compression between $1mm+ F50 prices and the XJ $250k-350 USD range...
I enjoy talking about this car as well as it is my #2 favorite supercar of all time. It has it all except the sound IMO due to the V6. You'll never see it drop below 200. Not unless we have a global meltdown LOL. They always fluctuate between 200-300k. And they NEVER move up or down. I've always found it quite odd, as it is one of the most beautiful supercars there is. It will always be on my bucket list until I get to the point where I can grab one.
Prices on many cars have stayed about the same for the last 12-18 months or so. F40 comes to mind right now. You are right that the market as a whole is still going up but I think for many headline cars the big moves have occurred already. To the marketplace it does seem the F50 was a disappointment- but that proves my point. Its clothed in Ferrari mythos and that counts for something. Its a part of a line of Ferrari supercars that the 288 foreshadowed and the F40 really created. The F50 has the benefits of being rarer than the other cars- you might say for good reason- and is the last supercar with stick shift and relatively pure/ straightfoward. Yet to drive it- supposedly as I haven't driven one yet- is a true delight. So even today, rather than being a bit of a footnote, the F50 stands out as one in a series of Ferrari supercars- and I really don't think its that bad of a car- it seems like its actually spectacular in its own way. It just came after THE supercar. Compare to the XJ220, I don't know as much about them but I do know Jaguar doesn't have its own line of supercars and they tried to establish it with the XJ220. And more recently they axed their supercar project (to compete with LF, P1, and 918) as not feasible. I read up on this new car and it was very interesting. I'm sorry they shelved it, but Jaguar must know what they are doing. As an aside, their new cars are really well done. As I see it, Jaguar just doesn't have the same marketing pull that Ferrari does. That simple. So, as an investment, I wouldn't compare the XJ220 to the F50 or any other Ferrari. One is a Ferrari and that kind of applies its own set of rules and logic. At least thats how I see it.
We can agree to disagree on some things... I agree with you on others. It is that disfavor of the XJ220 that no doubt sets its price. I just think you often want to buy when something is out of favor. I realize that in many minds that car is always out of favor, but I disagree... It was a beautiful, futuristic design, and it was certainly a poster car (just most people didn't know what kind of car was on the poster...) It had some success to back up the image and its production numbers were very low. I wouldn't buy much in today's market, vintage or more recent modern, but that one looks like something that would be a pretty safe investment with some very nice long-term upside. Speaking of frothy market, maybe the water cooled Porsche market is starting to rise? 1999 Porsche 911 for $265,000 in KELOWNA | autoTRADER.ca hah
Hahah 996 is the one of the worst generations in porsche history. Inexcusably terrible build quality and overproduced. They are absolute junk. But good value for a daily romper at 10-15 grand. Buy it ,drive the crap out of it for two years, then throw it away.
The xj220 is beautiful, no question about it. It's so damn large, though! I don't care much about it being a v6 as long as the engine does the job without excessive turbo lag. For me it's its sheer size that kills the appeal. The xj220 is a foot and half (!) longer, 9 inches wider, and over 500 pounds heavier than the F50! It's more of a highway express train than a raw, tossable racer/sports car like the F40 or F50. Not my thing...
Dave, Agreed. Buying things that are out of disfavor can be a good strategy. It really all depends. I don't have a passion for Porsche so I can't really speak about that market except to say others I correspond with tell me the market for air cooled 911s is really hot and they think its over cooked but I really can't say I know this or not. I think my point is if you like the XJ220, I would not try to tell you its a bad car- you like what you like and there certainly valid reasons to like the XJ220. But I would not try to value it based primarily on a comparison to the F50. Maybe I'm wrong but I've come to see that Ferrari has managed to carve out their own world with their own rules. Sometimes they are susceptible to the general market trends and sometimes not. Rather I would value the XJ220 based on how it fits into the Jaguar story and perhaps the larger world sports car story- and there is some over lap with Ferrari at this point. None of this is for the feint of heart. I do think the XJ220 is wild looking and I remember when it came on the scene and I thought: my goodness, Jaguar has made a spaceship!
Again, I don't necessarily disagree -- this was not one of my dream cars by any stretch. However, it did hold the nurburgring lap record for a production car for a very long time (and, my guess, the F50 would struggle to match that). It is more than just a locomotive and it is still quite light.
I'm glad to see I'm not alone! Actually, I had a 1/12 blue model of the XJ220 in my room as a teenager, and this car has been one of my dream cars since then. Recently, I realised I could reasonably swap my current car (308 GTB glass) for an XJ220. One appeared next to my place, in Tokyo, in exactly the same combo as the one I had in my room. I went to see it, and gave it some thought, researched a little, and finally decided not togo for it. The reasons are the following: - The thing is HUGE. It wouldn't be easy to maneuvre in Tokyo's narrow streets, and I would have trouble finding a parking space for it at a reasonable price. - Maintenance cost could have killed me. Changing the plastic fuel tanks would be very expensive, and having the chassis dislocate because of those tanks leaking fuel that would eat up the epoxy used to glue the whole thing together would be even more expensive. Also, just try to find fitting tyres, good luck with that... - I didn't drive the car, but I sat in it. Although I find some charm in this interior, the global feeling is that of a very confined space, with very poor outside vision. That said, I do think this car will, at some point, go up in value. I believe people who had a crush on it when they were 15 are still a little too young to consider buying one. When those will be in their 50's, the story may change. By that time, it will most probably be out of my reach, but I decided this particular car should always be a dream for me, not a reality. By the way, I saw an EB110 yesterday for the first time, the 220 looks sooooo much better in my eyes...
Anybody had a chance to look at the 355 listings on ebay lately? Almost ALL DEALER cars. The bottom feeders are really getting gutsy now. hehe
interesting viewer post to the you tube video.. Palmer Woodrow 1 week ago (edited) This bubble is so obvious it isn't even funny. Of course the brokers are going to deny its existence. They don't want it to end But it always does. Many collectors have already left the hobby, taking huge profits off the table. I'm one of them. Many of the cars that have risen dramatically are not rare. They do not have a prayer of sustaining their values. There is not enough demand to begin with, and now there is even less due to the collectors (smart money) leaving the room. Good luck guys. The brokers are always the bag-holders in the end. They will get burned. The auctions houses are the ones behind this. They know what the general gear-heads like and desire and played the card accordingly (300k 993 turbos LOL). They are smarter and make money no matter what. The brokers aren't smart enough to start an asset bubble. Collectors know the actual value, and when the "market price" gets so far away from the actual value, collectors sell and wait for reality to return because they know better. Tixall House 6 months ago It's interesting to hear what these guys are saying but despite the fact that they've been there before I find it amazing that they can't see the bubble in front of their faces. The current boom they are discussing is very much investor lead and even the proper collectors are only piling in because they feel their money is safe or appreciating in a classic car. I remember the 1990 crash very well and its amazing how fickle people are when things go against them. Like then, dealers are holding huge amounts of stock and new inexperienced dealers are coming into the market daily, probably backed by somebody with a few million to wager. This has inflated demand falsely and its just a question of somebody or more likely a bunch of them needing the money back. Then just watch the prices start to tip backwards.
The XJ220 is subject to many misconceptions that get perpetuated without basis. Of the 278 cars made, the standard cars were quoted at 217mph and were measured at 211-213mpg. The rare (5 made) S variants were quoted to be 228mph and one was clocked at 220mph, which is expected given the boost in power from 542hp to 680hp and weight trimming. For a while, these were the fastest thing around until the McLaren F1 came along. Key thing is to get it serviced at the right place. Don Law Racing in England are the foremost experts in the cars and with values rising, it makes sense to take the extra expense and just ship them the car for the big work (tanks every 10 yrs etc). Try to cut corners with a local hack shop and you will double your outlay. My XJ220S, #220779 is just completing a complete go over by Don Law, including full engine strip and blueprinting, complete brake and suspension go through, cooling/AC go through, new fuel tank and minor cosmetic fix ups. Its a different kettle of fish value wise due its production rarity, so it made sense to give it a no compromise go through. World markets vary, but in England an XJ220 brings 250-375k pounds and the S cars double that (at least according to Don). It will be shipping back Stateside soon and then on to Quail. Who knows about future values, but typically supercars with less than 300 produced do alright. Image Unavailable, Please Login
The XJR-15 on the right is Chassis #50. Road variant, 1500 miles. Looking forward to getting them both back soon.
Man the 15 is a rare bird too. How many of those are there? I still prefer the 220, but man that is a beauty.
