Italian press says Valterii Bottas has signed with Ferrari for 2016

Please tell us, using your own reasoning, why Hulk is good enough to join Vettel at Ferrari. Stray quips from Alonso do not count, nor do any other driver quotes or opinions. What are your reasons for his being labeled as "better than Kimi?"

 

Hmm, so driver's opinions don't count? Lol, ok.

I suppose we can start with this:

-Hulkenburg, in a Force India, scored nearly double the amount of points Kimi did last year in his Ferrari
-Hulk very consistent, he has scored points in most of his career races despite being in mediocre equipment for his entire career
-Pole in a Williams in 2010
-He has smoked his teammate every year since his rookie year (including Perez who is no slouch)
-He just showed a tremendous amount of natural talent in winning the 24 Hours of LeMans in his first attempt in a car he doesn't even drive full time
-He would be a cheaper hire than Kimi
-He is much younger than Kimi and would be a better plan for the future
-He is eager to prove himself

Your turn. Please, considering his performance the past two years, tell me why Ferrari should keep throwing millions at Kimi?

 

It's not that hard. Hulk is proven in F1 and has been outperforming his machinery season after season. He's the real deal but has never been given top class equipment. Bottas by comparison is struggling to beat Massa who is an ageing Ferrari 2nd driver reject- hardly world beater evidence. He is also rubbish in the wet.

 

Would the Williams car with either Hamilton/Rosberg, Alonzo/Button or Vettel/Kimi be the #2 car on the grid?

G

 

Alonso might move it up a place. No one else would extract more out of it. No one. He is the sole gifted driver on the grid who gets more out of the car than any other driver. Just ask Kimi or his other team mates.

 

I concur. We've all seen what the other drivers have done with sub-par equipment.

 

Button back at Williams?

It won't happen.

You should know there is a bit of bad blood between Jenson Button and Frank Williams regarding non-observance of contract.
Williams loaned Button to Renault, and Button wouldn't come back at the end of his lease, don't you remember?
Button invoked inferior equipment at Williams, etc...
Frank Williams had to release him from the contract.

You can say anything about Frank Williams, but don't expect him to suffer from short memory !!!

 

+1 Well said.

 

I completely agree that Hulk is better than Kimi, but that is not saying much. I personally think 90% of the time ANY of the other drivers on the grid are better than Kimi.

But lets compare the Hulk to Webber to try and correctly position the Hulk's abilities:
-Yes before F1, Hulk's career is > than Webbers. 1 up to the Hulk
-Hulk got a pole in a Williams in 2010, but heck Webber got a pole in a flippin Jaguar! Back to even.
-Webber also out performed every one of his team mates until Vettel, including in his rookie year where he received "Rookie of the year" and "F1 newcomer of the year", so +1 to Webber.
-I don't consider a professional driver stepping into a FIA endurance car and performing well to be a sign of massive natural talent. All these guys have it and should be able to step into ANY car and be quick. Plus Webber has done the same thing and performed equally as well. Note Webber had pole at Le Mans so debatably quicker than the Hulk ... +2 to Webber.
-Alonso rates him. I have no idea what Alonso thinks of Webber, but okay back to +1 for Webber.

So again I have shown that Webber is better than the Hulk and yet 99.99% of F1 posters on this site don't rate Webber, so again why is there this IMO misguided respect for the Hulk?

Absolutely the Hulk would be better for Ferrari than Kimi, but so would my neighbour, but is he the best option out of all the drivers available? I honestly don't think so. If he was that good the other top teams would have given him a seat already.

So Ferrari need to cast their net further. Either Verstapin (never rated his father though but he seems quick) or somebody outside of F1 IMO.
Pete

 

Your comments on Kimi get more and more ridiculous.

 

Look kimis been pissing me off of late but let's get real. 90% of the time everyone is better? Are you kidding? He just needs to get his qualifying better and the podiums will pile up.

 

Just like so many people, myself included, said Fred will never go back to mclaren.

Anyhow, it depends on Button's hunger.

 

He is in the second best car on the grid and cannot even make it out of P3. I stand by my comments. Even Maldonardo could do better as he often actually is, in a mere Lotus.

But yes the "my neighbour" comment was a joke .

I hope the silence from Hulk "fans" (somewhat like Toil fans it appears ), means that they are reviewing their views and coming down to earth.
Pete

 

I'm not saying Hulk is bad. He is very good. I don't consider a lone pole on a drying track in a decent car to be an amazing feat. He finished 8th, a lap down, if we recall. Hulk's time to "make it" has passed. More than one top team has had the option of signing him, but did not. The market speaks for itself, and the market chose to pass on him when the opportunity presented itself. On more than one occasion. Hulk will forever be a Webber or Coulthard. He should only hope to find himself in a Red Bull like Webber had. A WDC contender by chance, not by design.

The reason for Ferrari to keep Kimi is simple. The team has not performed this well - both on the track and in the garage - since MS left the team. While Kimi has admittedly left something to be desired this season, the team as a whole is in a good place technically and spiritually. It is easier to fix Kimi's short-comings than to re-work the whole team with yet another new member. As much as people down-play Kimi's WDC, he is Ferrari's last world champ. This means a lot to the members of the team, and likely give them motivation and makes them proud of their current efforts. A happy team is a productive team. Keep them happy and the team will benefit as a whole. Then, make the switch to a new, young driver in 2017, as all have been expecting and anticipating since 2014. No surprises to the team. Smooth and heart-felt good-byes to one of F1's most liked characters. Maintain status quo and energize the team with the new regime.

 

[/QUOTE]
Hulk's time to "make it" has passed

The same was said about Jensen Button--113 starts without a win, subsequently a WDC. Hulk is a fast and fierce racer, he goes wheel to wheel with anyone but respects the limits. He has what it takes and wants the Ferrari drive desperately, I say give him a shot.

 

See above.

 

I suspect that Alonson is back in the frame at Honda's insistence, rather than from Ron Dennis' choice.

From what I understand, Honda has the habit of choosing one of the drivers in teams it backs up. Alonso became available and Honda wanted him in the car.

I think that Ron Dennis has been sidelined in this decision.
Just like in the old days; Senna was the Honda-chosen driver, whilst Prost was Dennis's choice.

 

Interesting last comment as Ron and Senna were definitely on one side of the fence with Prost on the other when he won the WDC in 1989.

RallyChris,
Very good post and I agree completely..

If Ferrari have signed Bottas I wonder if this means Vettel is not having the success he hopes in being able to "steer" or lead the team??
Pete

 

It's Honda that insisted that Senna join McLaren, as his team Lotus was faltering by then.
McLaren got the Honda engine on the condition that Senna followed.
Senna was favoured by Honda and given access to data Prost wasn't privy too.
Prost complained enough that Honda was keeping him in the dark about engine development, and the mapping was done to suit Senna's style.
The Brazilian had the choice of engine too!
Prost' accusations of favouritism were hardly exagerated.

Senna was the Honda driver; Prost was the McLaren driver, having previously won a championship with a TAG engine.

 

William,

I agree that was the case at the beginning but by the end of 1989 it was Ron and Senna versus Prost*. Ron and Senna became close. I believe when he was having second thoughts about F1, Senna called Ron ... unfortunately he got back in the car (Williams)
Pete
* One of the reasons why Prost's win of the WDC in 1989 was so impressive was that it was effectively Prost versus Senna AND McLaren, and of course he immediately left at the end of that season

 

Didn't Alonso had a contract with the Scuderia for 2015? What made him 'available'?

I also think it's silly for Honda to go after him. He's known for quitting once the tough gets going. He left Mclaren under a cloud, left Renault, left Ferrari, and now in the other thread, he's talking about leaving the series (i don't blame him for that part, at F1 is so screwed up at the moment, rules, regulations, lack of testing, etc) But my point is, Alonso never lasts..

 

Alonso did have a contract but due to their performance clause he could leave.

He didn't bail on Renault because it got tough, he won the championship that year. McLaren he did leave. Ferrari was relatively **** for all the time he was there, he stuck longer than I would have...

 

What made Alonso available is that he made it known loud and clear that he was unhappy at Ferrari and wanted an exit, regardless of contract. Contracts mean nothing.
With that in mind, it wasn't too difficult for Honda to lure him to Mclaren.

As for changing team often, I won't blame Alonso for that. I think any driver has to look after himself first and try to find the best seat and the best conditions to further his career.

I don't believe in loyalty to a team , or why drivers should stay loyal to a team. After all, teams ditch drivers when it suits them, regardless of what such and such brought them in terms of success or wins. Drivers have a very short career in F1, so them must capitalise as much as possible during that period.

Ferrari is particularly bad at the way it looked after its drivers during decades of F1

Look at Fangio: raced from 1950 'til 1958, 5 titles, 4 different teams. The Argentine always went to the team offering him the best car.

That's why I follow a few drivers, and don't care much about the teams.

 

Sorry there is more to it than just accepting Prost at his word.

From Motorsport Magazie on how the Honda deal came to be: "Simultaneously, Dennis was becoming increasingly irritated by the kudos Porsche was getting for its successful F1 turbo – first used by McLaren in the 1983 Dutch GP – while all the funding was provided by team partner TAG. “I went to see them every year and said, ‘Look, this is ridiculous. It might say TAG on the side, but you’re getting all this great publicity and not paying a penny’.” Attempts to persuade Porsche’s board to finance an engine programme proved fruitless… and meanwhile Senna had started dropping hints.

“He thought he could convince Honda to come on board,” Dennis says, “and I realised Ayrton could be a useful ally. He was politically astute and more than capable of grasping that, if we worked together, we could optimise our relationship with Honda. There were several clandestine meetings and we signed the deal in a basement bar at a hotel where we stayed during the Austrian GP.” The grand plan – Senna and Prost to race McLaren-Hondas – was confirmed at Monza."

Regarding Favoritism by Honda:

"According to Takeo Kiuchi, Honda engineer, Prost started to mumble about Senna being favored when he realized who Senna really was. He said that Senna was deep within the Japanese Project while Prost was not in the same tune. He said that Senna had a much more accurate feeling for the car, comparing him to a electronic fuel injection and Prost to a carburetor. Such reasons made Senna much more important for Honda than Prost.

Honda’s engines came sealed in boxes which were schuffled in front of the entire team. There’s no way Honda would give better engines for Senna… the Honda team was deeply sad with Prost’s comments because they hurt the entire team’s integrity. As we all know, Japanese are well known for their honor and honesty."


Ron Dennis: “With Alain he was always very concerned that Ayrton would be favoured by Honda as regards to the engine. So the race engines would be lined up, engine numbers would be written on pieces of paper, put in a hat and they would draw for their engine choice. It was simplistic but the easiest way to ensure that there was no bias on engines.”

GORDON MURRAY, chief engineer in McLaren at the time, in which he say “Senna was better at car setups and racing strategy, even bluffing to Prost in some occasions”.

 

You only confirm the fact that Senna was closee to Honda, whilst Prost was a McLaren driver. Senna moved to McLaren with Honda, Prost was already there, having ran TAG engines.

The 2 men had different approach to racing, but I doubt very much that Senna was better at setting a car. Prost used practice to tune his car for the race, unlike Senna who was obsessed by poles. Prost had a very good reputation for setting cars up, at Renault, at McLaren, at Ferrari and at Williams.

Senna was fastidious with engine mapping, apparently, and would go on hours after hours analysing data, sometimes late in the night after practice when the mechanics and engineers wanted to go to bed.

Sometimes the next day Prost would noticed changes in the mapping on his car which he hadn't asked for or wanted. That confirmed his opinion that Senna obtained more from Honda than himself and could get what he wanted.

Before the present era and its race strategists, Prost knew how to plan a race, analyse the field, adopt different tactics according to circumstances; it's not by chance they called him "The Professor".
Senna was more like a bull in a china shop, he wanted to be the best at every corner and raced with his heart more than his head.