Will there be a F12 "HGTE" Announced at Frankfurt in September?

Er, so the 250 GTO came before Pontiac used it. And yes it didn't stop Ferrari using GTO again for obvious reasons. Likewise the name "Passo Corto" was used by Ferrari on 8 competition 250 SWBs, which won at Le Man in 1961 (GT cat). So I doubt Ferrari would worry about Hyundai either. The racing heritage speaks for itself.

 

And you knew that without trawling through the Internet??

I have been an amateur student of Ferrari for the last 40 years and yet PC was completely unknown to me. Surely they need something that is more easily recognised without a history lesson?

 

Awesome insight/detail on Enzo that I was not aware of. Thanks for sharing

 

The car is fantastic as predicted! To refresh, it is not called a GTO because about five hundred and ninety nine clients whined immediately and incessantly to Ferrari dealerships, salesman and representatives that an F12 with the famed badge would be a travesty and cause existing GTOs to plummet in value. It would also hurt the brand as the moniker would no longer be special and existing owners would be furious. Further, 800 or more horsepower on anything looking like an F12 would be totally out of place and further hurt the value of existing models - even the LaF.

It all started back around Christmas when one prominent member asked if anyone got a call from their dealer asking about interest in a limited edition F12 with the GTO badge which was rejected immediately and documented on this site! All this, of course, was ridiculous. The car is as marvelous as predicted and contains many of the features I listed back then that I would want in such a car EXCEPT the GTO badge and the 800HP engine.

It makes you think though - Ferrari does listen to owners and very likely reads posts on this very site. By rejecting the badge, the car will lose literally millions in value over the next 10-15 years compared to existing GTOs. And the irony is that both cars will likely wind up being owned by the very same folks that didn't want it in the first place - losing them millions and still not hurting the value of their existing GTO's. Go figure.

 

Thanks for the clarification, but I don't believe that a mere 20hp less and a different badge will really impact just how important this car is, more so, to my mind, than anything they did with the 599. I do understand why existing 599 GTO owners could be unhappy but they don't own the badge, they just bought a car with a distant relationship to the XX, how distant or not is a discussion for another thread please. The 599GTO is a 599 and the F12 surely, 10 years later has an equal right to be a GTO, representing, as it does, the ultimate evolution of that model as well. The fact that this car, to my mind, will be a more important bookend in Ferrari history than the 599 GTO, will not, I believe, be affected by what nomenclature it carries.

Regardless, from what we know and see, it deserves to carry a special badge of some sort, but given a choice between the 599 GTO and the F12 Hamburger, I would take the Hamburger. And I am lucky enough to have that choice.

 

That last paragraph is interesting indeed. Double edged sword right there.

Bottom line is I want one because I truly appreciate the styling changes over the F12 and I think it will perform even better (not that it needs more). I have owned 2 599's and was disappointed with the styling of the F12, so didn't bother with getting one. I hope Ferrari makes enough of these cars so I am fortunate enough to land an allocation, so to hear 800 production (which probably means 1000, right &#128521 may just be enough. Heck, make more while they're at it. The V12 ferraris are very special and I need one next to my "slow" V8's.


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Agreed. I had the choice between the GTO and the F12 Berlinetta and chose the F12. Couldn't be happier as it just does it all. However, as a racer, I would still want another 100HP. - best

 

Agreed, that is why I am getting the hamburger, it may be only 50hp extra but with the weight loss etc it will feel like the 100 you crave.

 

49 HP more and the motor is capable of the extra hundred. The lower weight is a true bonus but hope the ride is not too harsh. Its not a real race car so you would want to keep the fillings in your teeth. -best

 

I am sure a little after market ECU fiddling would give you the extra.

 

Why do you have to choose at all? You are not comparing apples to apples. The 599 GTO was so named in my opinion because both its design and tech represented the last and best of the breed before LED's, Double clutch tranny's , side slip control and hard angle aircraft aero bits and pieces to double your downforce and of course 800 hp.+ engines....... Turbo boosted and battery driven.
Then to show the world how much this car meant to them Ferrari badged it as a GTO. Without that badge and whatever the merits of the F12 VS may be. It will never be considered anything more than a modified F12. The continuing evolution of the current trend and nothing more. I've owned my GTO since new and it never fails to please. It is truly an exceptional Ferrari and I believe it will have a high level of price appreciation in the future and while I'm also on the list and hope to own a VS........Without the badge I just don't think it will ever be worth as much as the GTO.

 

A technical question of sorts. The 599GTO was based on the 599XX which was a fairly serious track-oriented version. That is to say the 599GTO was not simply a more track-oriented but still roadable version of the regular 599. If this F12 is to carry a GTO designation, what car will it be derivative of? Or will it be simply a more track oriented version of the street F12, as the Speciale is to the 458, Scud to the 430 etc?

 

I'd like my hamburger medium rare with cheese please.

 

It is. But Ferrari LaFerrari, Sirhan Sirhan, Boutros Boutros, etc. ... and so not unprecedented?

 

... based on the 599. If there's an F12XX, it will be based on the F12 Hamburger, and will be called the F12 Hamburger Helper.

 

I'm not the Ferrari "Taliban" so yes I cherish the freedom to learn and make mistakes Per naming, I just admire great modern-day brands who create brilliant modern-day products and can still delve deep into their glorious past to use again little known names.

 

I think we can agree that the F40 is a more iconic car than the 599GTO, indeed, given the production run, the values speak for themselves. This did not need a GTO badge and nor did Ferrari think it needed it and yet it really represented the end of an era, truly the last analogue car and that really was a milestone as opposed to what you say about SSC and downforce etc which was, to my mind, simply evolutionary and part of a journey.

You could well argue that this car is a far more epoch defining car. From what I understand within the factory, it has been subject to far more of an industrial effort than the 599GTO was and this car could well represent the very last of a breed, the ultimate evolution of the naturally aspirated front engined V12 cars, a book end to where it all began with Ferrari. That really would be epoch defining if that were to be the case.

We know their original intention was to refer to it as a GTO, so they clearly thought it an important car, but it was just the outcry from Owner's that seems to have given them second thoughts.

I appreciate that 599 GTO owners love their cars and are understandably somewhat protective of them and know it is a great and ultimate evolution of the 599, but this F12 Hamburger car could well be the ultimate evolution of much more than just the F12 and a GTO badge won't necessarily make the difference.

 

Apologies if that appeared critical-I was just trying to make the point that is is hardly a well known name!

 

The 599 GTO carries that name because it is derived from a track car. It is the "O" (omologato) version of an unhomolgated car. It is also by definition extreme.

The fact that the new F12 has been referred to as either VS or GTO, is simply because a name has yet to be chosen an therefore the car gets referred to in such a manner. The LaFerrari was referred to - in the factory - as the nuova Enzo, the 430 Scuderia as the Stradale and the Speciale as the Scuderia

Ferrari will come up with a name - whether good or bad (and let's hope it's a good one after the recent howlers) - it won't change the fact that the car will mark its place. It is a limited series car and as such will command great interest.

Ferrari haven't made anything but truly great cars - at least since the disastrous 348. So this new car will be exceptional as will the next one and the one after that.

None of this takes away from those that went before - quite to the contrary!!

 

You are correct. Passo Corto was never an official name but became a coined name, much like Daytona for the 365 GTB/4

 

Well said. I have absolute faith in them here.

 

That pretty much sums it all up for me. Well said Peter.

 

No worries

 

I agree. I suppose I should have ended up by summarising my point, which is that the badge doesn't make the car, the car does.

 

Precisely. There is one very simple difference between the base 599 and the F12 and that is that the base 599 faded badly in later years whereas the f12 is still at the top of the pile. The GTO badge was absolutely needed to ensure all the production could be shifter. The F12 VS does not need this help as the market is huge and every one produced can be sold. The marketing department determines what name is to be used - not whether there is a faux race version already in existence.