F12 VS Where will future values go?

With the power and displacement ratios 458NA / 488tt the next V12 should be a 5.5 litre V12tt with like 850+ hp.

 

I heard from someone who attended the preview two weeks ago that the production number is 599 units.

 

It all depends on the buyer. I think the vs will spark nostalgia in the older generations because of the 250/275 cues so there will be a very strong secondary market for the car. Will it sky rocket in prices? Don't think so. But I don't think you will loose much.

At the end if the day, people buy the car for different reasons and I have a feeling that there will be those that will never sell it as there really hasn't been anything like this for a while from v12 2 seaters besides the 599 GTO. I can see this being the cornerstone of many ferraris owners stables.

 

It should but it won't-next V-12 will go turbo until hybrid costs and reliability are sorted

 

IIRC the V12 from Ferrari will remain NA for now until 2021 at least, and presumably go to ERS assisted from there on.

I hope they haven't changed vision...Turbo V12's rarely sound good.

 

Glad you are so confident, but is that just because, you, like most of us would like it to be so or do you actually have some information? My comment is, regretfully, more than supposition.

As regards number, it seems all reports are quite fluid on this car. All I have is anecdotal evidence which suggests 700 as the run. That is based on my dealer being allocated 6 LFs and 8 VS/GTO/SWB/Competitzione.

 

I have no inside info on this unfortunately, just remembering from what I read here a while ago. IIRC Ferrari said that the top flight cars remain NA V12 (for as long as possible).

 

Wow, then 499 units will go to LaF owners for them to keep or flip, leaving only 100 units available. OMG, I'm a small size vulture.

 

No, I don't believe so. My dealer tells me that their allocation has gone mostly to those who missed out on the LF, mostly, so there is hope albeit I thought they were probably all allocated by now......

 

Could pls elaborate. Language barrier for me...

What I tried to say is the V12 turbo (tt=twin turbo) should have less displacement and higher power output.

 

Are you that sure about Ferrari putting turbos on V12s? Or you are just one of many that dream of having a easy to tune turbo V12?

The added weight of all the turbo plumbings with be a match to a hybrid system, especially if it's a lightweight setup like LaFerrari.

Cost wise, Ferrari is not going to develop a brand new turbo charged V12 engine for just one cycle and then abandoned it for hybrid system, it doesn't make sense at all business wise.

Going hybrid on there other hand is easy, the existing V12 can continue and the hybrid add-on has already proven itself in the LaFerrari. Minimum capital investment.

 

V12 won't go turbo, Ferrari has said that. And I hope not.

 

Ferrari said that before they had the change of management... They've gone more quiet about it since....

I think the turbo plumbing won't be as heavy as the batteries etc that would be required. Also note the size of the motor will decrease.

Using wikipedia- they list the Enzo curb weight at around 2,800lbs and the LaFerrari around 3,495lbs... One would think improvements in light weight materials would help the new car weigh less- except for its hybrid system...

The 458 Italia weighs about 3,274lbs and the 488 GTB weighs 3,252...

so... its interesting in this case it seems Ferrari has managed to keep the turbo model curb weight about the same...

F12 weighs 3,362lbs...

Im sure these weights are a bit low but the relative point remains- the car with the battery weighs substantially more than its predecessor while the one with the turbo doesn't. No analogy is perfect of course and the 458-488 comparison is probably more apt but the difference in weight from Enzo to LF is startling...

I'm told the battery complexity, cost, weight, are all factors why they won't do the hybrid for the F12. I'm told- it will be turbo. Its not wishful thinking on my end. I'd prefer no turbo.

Time will tell.

 

Then my NA V12 F12 is certainly going to be a keeper.

 

You know, about the the weight of the cars.

My F12 is listed as 1633kg on my insurance paper, my FF at 1678kg. For comparison, my G63 is listed at 2550kg which is right at where AMG published it according to EU standard. My Weissach pack 918 is listed at 1695kg, about 55kg more than what Porsche published for a Weissach car, but my car has everything deleted added back.

Interestingly, the FF is about 250lbs LESS than Ferrari's published DRY WEIGHT while the F12 is about 7 lbs more than the published curb weight. And my FF already had the heavy glass roof option.

You really have to take the published weights of Ferrari cars with a giant grain of salt.

 

As I recall there was a post from someone and/or comment from Ferrari at the time of the LaF launch about a special car directed at those who had missed out

 

I absolutely agree with you. I hope no one thought I was trying to be down to the lb accurate. That's why I said I was just using the easily available Wikipedia numbers.

However if we can agree the weight figures used might not be super precise, but rather they are being used to show the relative difference between the hybrid system choice and the turbo system choice, then I think we can have a meaningful conversation.

I know weights are a tricky subject because it often comes down to dry weight vs with fluids or which options are selected- my point simply is the electronic assist system on the LF likely adds quite a bit more weight than going with a smaller displacement turbo motor. That's all I'm getting at.

We could expand my point about Enzo (2,767lbs)->LF(3,495) weight gain to the Porsche CGT (3,040lbs)->918 (3,620 wikipedia vs 3,736 your number for the Weissach), and also the McLaren F1 (2,509 for the heaviest variant)->P1 (3,411)...

For fun I took the weight gain for the 3 cars and averaged it. Granted a lot of technology has moved on and there is more stuff in these cars than in the older cars- especially the oldest one the McLaren F1- but the average weight gain for the successor car is 737lbs. That is massive when you are talking about cars that one would hope would weigh less than 3,000lbs. The only way these companies get away with using the battery power systems is by building vehicles out of CF and other light weight materials. Its super exotic and expensive- especially the way Ferrari builds out of CF which is more costly and time consuming than how McLaren does it.

Can you imagine that kind of weight gain on an F12? It would be brutal to the car's performance. The F12 might weigh something like 4,300-4,600lbs depending on what you believe the curb weight of the F12 is. That's almost the weight of an S Class... The one thing I think the battery system would do is give you better weight distribution. But I'd still take the lighter weight setup and I reckon Ferrari will do this as well.

Just wondering- do you have to get your cars weighed for your insurance or does your insurance company provide the data or some other method?

 

All so right. Add in the need to reduce emissions and create another 150hp so as to make a sizeable leap to the next model and just where do you expect it to come from? The V8 had come to the end of its power output and so has this V12.

 

No, I didn't have to weight the cars, the weights were given to the insurance company by the manufacturers and is listed as net weight.

 

Thanks guys. Excellent points. I don't really believe the weight the manufacturers give the insurance companies either.

 

well said.

 

in my case the numbers are a bit more believable as the insurance company is run by the government, so not a great incentive for them to lie to the government.

If Ferrari lied to the internet public about the weight, the worse would be some flaming going on, if they lied to the government, their cars might get banned from being imported.

 

Oh thats very interesting. I didn't know that. I agree that is more likely true but I also bet they give them a number that sounds reasonable.

 

And a combination of e-turbos and hybrid in the future.

 

could not agree more! Well thought! Best - e-


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