early 8-cylinder market is insane

........maybe, maybe not. I disagree on the power thing. In a straight line, yes, turning right or left at speed, no. My car is just fine power wise, thank you.

 

Yeah and some guy in a Camry can take a 360 while "turning right at speed". Provided the 360 driver actually knows how to drive his car.. try Maybe not.

We've seen this bubble before. When it pops it ain't gonna be pretty.

 

Nope all old cars suck. In the early 80's before the 246 jumped exponentially we would say the same thing about it. The 70's 308 was so much better and ran circles around the 246 that wasn't even a ferrari.

 

Pointless om me wishing I bought that mint low mileage 328 in the mint '90's as I would have flipped in a couple if years later anyway, but still........

 

Yah that still isn't reality based on what I've seen - at least related to the GT4. They have appreciated a ton for sure in the past year, but I haven't seen those prices.

360 is definitely a bargain, but often not being cross-shopped with a 308.

 

I heard that said about the Dino as well, and we know how that turned out.

Glad I have my 308...

 

The prices have jumped on the time capsule cars and the restored ones, but the restored ones don't sell for more than the cost of restoration and normal 3x8s don't seem to be selling for much more than before. 30K in 1999 is 43K today.

 

Unless 308 prices hit current Dino levels, I am keeping mine

 

If anyone here wants to join the insanity, I'd happily trade my 308 GT4 for a 360 Spider!!! Anyone want to trade their 458 Spider for my 328 GTS??????

Seriously, that's what we all hope for, right, for one day to look at the publications and realize that the classic exotic cars we bought for less than a five-year old used sports car are worth insane amounts? And that the cars we lusted after enough to plop down money are being enthusiastically appreciated by those that once passed them over -- because they now know better?

 

I'm good with all this

 

It surprises me how long it's taken for the 308 series to attain their rightful status in the collector car market. To an entire generation, the 308 is what they think of when they hear the word Ferrari, just as the 911 SC/3.2 Carrera defines the image of Porsche to that same generation. Look at the prices of those 911s, then look at the production numbers. The 308 is far rarer and sexier than a 911SC, and should be valued accordingly. I've driven a number of examples of each and, while I'm heavily biased toward Italian cars, to me a Euro carbed 308 is twice the car that an SC is.

For a long time those cars were cheap, and were therefore often owned by people who did not maintain them to a very high standard. As prices climb, it becomes economically viable to put money into restoring the cars to factory (or better than factory) standards. So the $100k + 308s of today are a good bit nicer cars than the $30-$35k 308s of a few years ago.

In today's market, 308 values make decent sense to me, even though I wish they were still at giveaway prices so I could park one next to the 348 one day. No doubt the market will suffer a downturn at some point... it always does. But as long as our house-of-cards economy doesn't collapse totally, the overall price trend will be upward, despite any valleys encountered along the way. The $129k 308 may lose half its value at some point, but it'll take a serious crash for it to ever drop to the levels we saw for so many years. And, assuming there's a crash and subsequent rebound, it's safe to assume that the $129k 308 will bounce to $180k or more the next time 'round. Because that's what exotic cars do, in general.

 

Mike, you just hit the nail on the head on why 3X8 prices will climb for years to come. That in itself is what helps to drive values. If the marque is desirable (as Ferrari has always been), the car that people who are doing the buying (depending on the age/generation) envision are the ones to have. And despite the tired lines about rarity, it is more important to values to have nostalgia than rarity. (A rare performance version of a car about which people are nostalgic (like a Hemicuda or L88 Vette) -- even better.)

It's easier for higher production cars to raise in value, because there are physically more to cross the block and set new standards. According to Bluemel there were 21,684 GTS/GTBs in the 1975-1989 production of the 308/208/328 line -- less than the number of Corvettes sold in '63 alone.

 

Abarth Fiat 500s variants are trading for more than 308s and 360s and make double digit horsepower. If you think market value is related to horsepower then you are way off base.

 

Interesting take, Sam. It's not one I would have intuitively come to, but I can see where it could very well be true. For example, 348 prices have not increased as precipitously as other Ferraris, yet I have not seen any that I really wanted to buy since I got mine back in May. Perhaps they are trading below the radar, but whether they are or aren't there are still very few data points to use when ascertaining current market values. Contrast that with 308s, TRs, and even 355s, where there have been a number of public sales to help bolster values.

 

All the justifications for the market are typical.

I loved the 308 growing up. Still do. I can buy one -- but it isn't worth the current asking prices because A) not rare by any stretch B) the performance is no longer there and C) it isn't rare. I covet the car, but think it was priced right for 25+ of its last 30 odd years.

All the strange justifications make no sense... is it somehow also the same world for air cooled 911s? For other Ferrari vintages?

Rising tide lifts all boats and Ferrari and Porsche are the main names (sports cars).

For those that own them already, I actually feel for you since it may make the car less enjoyable to own. To those who will take advantage of prices, that is understandable too. For those buying at these prices, best of luck and for many it may not matter. I just hope it isn't speculation or fear of higher future prices. Those are reasons likely to fail in the next year to pay off.

 

Values in terms of trends are actually really easy to predict. In terms of absolute numbers, it's a lot harder. In the years that my primary gig was a collector car journalist, people were always questioning me about what cars would be "valuable", and most people can pick those very easily. The largest trip-up is when one starts with rarity. Better to start with desirability. My 246-Dino (and Morgan trike collecting) friend Brian P has a great line: "rare generally means that nobody wanted them when they were new". A car that was desirable new will be desirable and more valuable than the masses when classic. If it was limited edition AND desirable (F40), rarity becomes a multiplier! But a low production car, like a 1964 Buick Special convertible has no value compared to a much higher production platform-mate GTO of which they made exponentially more cars.

348s are actually an easy profile: They haven't started going up because the we're only 25 years out from initial production. Generally speaking (and there are definite exceptions) you look at 30 years from mid production for a car to start really moving in value. Aside from time, the 348s will be a lot like 330s -- the values will be dictated by the appreciation of cars that were more iconic. (For the 330, it was stuck between the 275s and Daytonas and rose when the others took off before them.) In the case of the 348, you'll see the 3X8s rise up over the next five years, along with the Testarossas, both which started earlier than the 348 in production. This will bolster the 348 values.

Like the 308GT4, the 348s suffer from journalist regurgitation -- meaning every article has to mention that it was an ugly stepchild, or unreliable or not as good as the car it replaced, or one of the other "never sat in one, never driven one, never talked to anyone who has actually owned one long-term and knows what they're talking about" lines. The 500 Superfasts overcame this (not a real sports car), and GT4s are just starting to beat the "not a 246" or "doesn't look like a Ferrari" or "poor-man's Ferrari" lines. The 348 will as well...because it is a great ride and a Ferrari.

And buy your Mondial T cabs now, boys. When has a convertible Ferrari not appreciated?

Other cars that will come up in value in the next decade? '93-'95 RX7s, '93-'95 Supra TT, NSX, Triumph TR8, Buick Grand National and GNX, Porsche 944/Turbo/968 Cab and 928 (although don't plan on the 911 type increase!), ZR1 Corvettes, 1st gen Viper GTS, Mustang Cobra R, Viper-powered RAM trucks, Ford Lightning...the list goes on.

 

You have GOT to quit racing your mom. Actually, I have a dry sump glass 308gtb and recently sold an '02 360 spider, and I think even my mom could beat me to the top of that hill with the 360. Even the best, lightest 308s are dead slow relative to any modern Ferrari.

 

Two different markets. 308s have entered the classic car market and are still fairly affordable in that context; 360s are relatively common (for Ferrari) used cars.

Very few classic car enthusiasts actually compare their 1960s/1970s cars to modern cars. The outright performance of a 246, 300 SL, 356 Speedster, Series 1 Jag E-Type, etc., is honestly the last thing anyone cares about. (And FWIW none of those are especially rare, either.)

 

The Glass 308 at Gooding sold tonight for $225k + comm.

 

When people ask me if my 328 or GT4 are "fast" I always say "compared to what?" Then I usually say "Compared to the Triumph TRs I've owned, yes. Compared to my Toyota Avalon, no. Compared to my C5 Corvette, not even close to fast."

And when kids ask "how fast does it go" about any of my cars, I always say "the speed limit".

Oh -- as for production/rarity-- that's relative, as well:
300SL: 3258 (1400 coupes and 1858 roadsters).
S1 E-Types:15,490 (7820rdstr/7670 cpe)
Porsche 356 Speedster: 4144,
206/246 Dinos: 3912
Triumph TR8: 2497 (including 400 coupes)
1967 Corvette 427ci/435hp "tripower": 3,754
1965 Impala SS: 243,114 (incl 27,842 conv)
1965 Mustang Convertible: 101,945

 

I think there is a bubble ... not sure how big. As for 308 /328 vs. 360... performance is not everything. we are after all comparing cars that are almost 10 years apart. if you compared a 275GTB & a 308 QV - people in the early 80's would have said the same thing... but today the 275 is a $1M + car...

My personal thoughts are that the 308 /328 / Mondial 8 & QV series are the LAST cars made while Enzo Ferrari was alive and owned 50% of the company... he did not direct it, but technically as Chairman he was in charge. the newer cars just dont have that Historical tie. 348's while nice cars are what happend after FIAT & co. got their hands on the full factory.... 355 when Di Montezemolo came on was much better ... but still a FIAT creation.

Today - while the cars are stunningly fast... they are not really Classic Ferrari's... they are amazing and finally beautiful again, but sadly they dont have the historic tie to the Ferrari Family. for some that means nothing... but for collectors - provenance and history is what you are buying.

BTW... a 360 will run circles around a 308 series car all day... but you will enjoy the drive - any drive much better in a 308... its just so much more memorable. just like driving a 250 SWB is not exactly set your world on fire.... but the experience is amazing if you like that kind of thing.

 

Wasn't my point to compare outright performance, but rather point out that it isn't being purchased because it is a better driving car than [insert car here]. Same with the other cars you mention, but note that the 300 SL (especially gullwing) is older and rarer and more unique, and the 356 has skyrocketed in value recently too, is older, and while mass produced, fewer good examples remain (more variance in condition).

The 360 is actually rarer than the 3x8 series... by a decent amount. The 3x8 wasn't a particularly outstanding drivers car, but it certainly IS one of the cars that got me interested in Ferrari growing up. Big nostalgia appeal, and its style elements were influential. I just think the price equalization (or higher) of the 3x8 series vs. modern (360) cars is not founded in reality but rather (like most price action of late) people chasing cars and prices mindlessly.

 

You just can't compare the 308 vs. 275... People in the 80s may have been right if they compared performance, but they would not, since the production numbers are absolute worlds apart. Different type of animal.

Performance in the era is relevant for long-term value too. The 3x8 series was the econoline of the time and was comparable in performance to much less expensive cars (and unlike today, those less expensive cars got to that performance without computer tech). A couple of my current cars are faster than an F40 in the quarter or on a track...but the F40 was the king of its era. That will never change.

Because the 3x8 line will never be collectible at the highest level (due to lack of rarity) it will and should remain a "driver's" classic. Unlike a Countach, which may not be the best drive, but which was not just "a poster car" but rather "the poster car" of the 80s, and produced in much lower volumes.

I think the bubble is widespread, so not a knock on the 3x8 series at all. It is actually a car I always liked, I just don't think it will (or should) remain a six figure car.

 

Check out this link:

Used 1988 FERRARI Mondial for sale in COSTA MESA, CA | Eurocar

The same car is here:
Other Makes | eBay

$199K for an 88 Mondial! Wahooooooooooooooooo. Here we go!


check out post 14 in this thread....200K Euros for another Mondial
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/mondial/496865-stunning-88-but-bit-pricey.html


Now, where did I put my Prozac?

Sid

 

I have both a 308 and 360 and they are both very special, but the 308 is a more period experience with stick shift, many have carbs, sound great, are super fun to drive and have an absolutely gorgeous design. Given the current obsession with stick shift, the 308 is still the cheapest way to get one with a timeless design, that provides an awesome experience in a car that is cheap and easy to service. Don't get me wrong I love my 360, but I kind of get where the market is coming from on the 308s.