Best way to slow down.

Once you get past the sheer WTF, this thread is comedic gold. Very entertaining. Gecko45-level stuff IMHO.

 

...and you suspect wrong - again. You have Peter Krause telling you (for free) it isn't taught - period. Learn something.

"Adding engine braking"? You think that engine compression is going to help slow you down if you "add it" to a car that is already being threshold braked? That makes zero sense. The compression of the engine at redline won't hold a candle to even 50% braking force. What you are saying makes no sense at all.

Here's an example from F1:
Engine braking with *massive* downforce ~1g
Threshold braking - 4-6g

Exactly how does that work again?

Adjusting throttle in a turn, even a full lift, is never referred to as "engine braking" by instructors. They would say something like "lift" or "go from x throttle to y" or "throttle adjustment to point the car". It's simply the correct tool that is needed at that time to adjust speed and or weight distribution on the tires.

There is no difference of opinion among the experts. And to be clear, the poll is not 100% accurate anyway, because even I would use "engine braking" if I lost my brakes and wanted the car to stop at some point short of hitting something.

Again, this has nothing to do with "new students", and you would know that if you actually spent any real time trying to get faster with a qualified coach.

Smooth is fast is right...and if you are not nailing your heel-toe downshifts while threshold braking, you will get non-stop feedback from the instructors that you are not smooth as the car jumps around, or spins. If you are in an F1 equipped car, then the computer does all this for you. That's one of the reasons why a basic car with no nannies and a manual gearbox is the teaching tool of choice for the best known racing schools.

You should pick up "Going Faster!" by Skip Barber Racing School. Iracing is also a tremendous tool if you have a decent setup.

 

You need to re-read the thread.

I clearly said you need to brake before you downshift just as you approach turn-in. In a longish fast corner, engine braking is just used to balance the brake bias as you trailbrake, to maintain high engine compression, to help balance the load on the chassis and at times to adjust the understeer/oversteer balance. The front brakes still do most of the slowing.

And it looks like the stats you quote about "Engine braking with *massive* downforce ~1g" are in agreement with what I said.

So you've just confirmed one of my suspicions, that driving instructors do not label compression braking as engine braking. Their concept of engine braking is restricted to the braking effect from heavy downshifts which they feel, correctly, would be difficult to control if you try to rely on that too much for slowing the car.

So now you're worried about the poll. BTW, it doesn't mention anything about ...what if you lost your brakes and have nothing else aside from engine braking and "tossing out a chain & anchor" to chose from?.

Smooth is only faster if you're timetrialing all by yourself on a perfect track under perfect conditions... and definitely not if you have company to contend with. However, smooth is always safer, even if you have to go slower to stay smooth. That was my point in case you missed it.

 

This is the most telling statement so far. WOW is all that needs to be said.

 

Hopeless...ignored.

 

It's funny to watch him continuously introduce new erroneous statements while attempting to lecture with no experience.

 

I hadn't looked at it that way, but you're right; comedic gold indeed.

No good getting all bent out of shape - Everyone's entitled to their view, even if it's;

a. Wrong
b. Won't listen to others

Darn; Gonna have to go Google that now!

Cheers,
Ian

 

Check this one instead. This one blew my mind.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/ferrari-discussion-not-model-specific-sponsored-algar-ferrari/403533-ferrari-should-offer-n-button-f1-steering-wheels.html

 

That is why I would want to know when he is on track... that might be a good time to sit out a session.

so from what the last statement he made was that "compression braking" can be used to compensate for loss of brakes...? WTF is totally correct.

I've seen cars that have shifted from 5th to 1st ... might even be some stuff like that on utube... but usually ... engine over rev- then poof... engine is dead... and or transmission is toast as well... and you have neither brakes or compression ... so you will have to drag your feet if you are still alive.

I remember Peter Revson at Watkins Glen had a stuck throttle at the back of the main straight... down shifted and ka blamo!!! ...and that was from 5th to 4th ... I think.

 

That is probably partially my fault for the way I phrased it. Yah compression alone won't do much, you have to try to catch a lower gear and hope the drivetrain helps slow you down.

Stuck throttle, you should should go neutral and hope the engine blows in a straight line and you still have brakes. At least so I've been taught. Hope I never have to find out.

 

ROFL! I guess that is the one he accused me of referencing earlier in the thread when I was simply pointing out something the errors in this thread.

 

I learn a lot when reading F-chat but occasionally I just read things. ^

 

I had to google it too. but as soon as I did I remembered some of my gun toting friends had showed me that **** a few years ago.

The internet can be very entertaining!

 

WOW! I could not get past the first sentence, avoid throttle lift oversteer by putting it in neutral, HUHWHAT? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's enough for me.

 

How did I miss that one?..... As others have noted, "Wow, just wow!"

"She's a Dusie fer sure!"

Plus, I've got **** to do, so I'm only about half way thru - Plenty more popcorn needed yet I feel. But I'm chuckling away while I work! Thanks for the link.

Cheers,
Ian

 

A couple observations, and a suggestion....

1) this thread started out with good potential, up until Post #6 at least. As a passionate track guy and racer, I'd like to see more activity in this section.

2) I'm also a physics/engineering grad who has enjoyed not only driving/racing, but learning about vehicle dynamics from some of the best race engineers and pro driver/instructors. There's a good braintrust on here, would be good to have more constructive dialogue

3) regarding Michael/4th Gear - I think it's clear that this horse does not want to be led to water, let alone drink. The contents in this thread, let alone the "N button" thread, are sufficient to illustrate his mastery of the topics and his desire to perhaps learn/be enlightened, or at least to engage in a conversation. Said otherwise, not sure we need to pile on and take this thread downhill even more. (and inevitably, he will probably debate this)

Suggestion - let's move on, before we beat the dead horse too much. This is an open/public internet forum - so perhaps suggesting we can operate a higher level may be a reach - but I think the point has been made and beyond this, we're either wasting time or becoming a cyber gang beating on the defenseless.

<<last post from me in this thread>>

 

+1
I've been far from the model of civility in this thread, but the recent comments are turning into just piling on making fun.

 

While I agree that the dead horse has been beaten, a very bizarre post was made just today about smooth not being fast. I don't think you can say we are piling on when some pretty far fetched claims are still being made. Regardless, I agree it does not appear 4thgear is willing to consider he
might be off base so I will simply stop posting and we will see if this car crash will terminate or continue.

 

I didn't make it through the first page of the "N-Button" thread. The first post says that "the video explains the use of the N-Button.. which I suspect they use more often than we think" When in fact, the video simply says "this is the N button, it puts the car in neutral".

This guy is a professional troll, he makes incredibly nonsensical statements and invents charts and graphs to support them. He remains calm and polite while continuously driving the entire thread absolutely batsh*t crazy.

I'm a track guy, many of the posters on this thread are professional racers and/or very experienced track rats. 4thgear has been completely and undeniably outed as a fraud/fake/lunatic. Again, he is a professional troll, who is laughing and enjoying this while everyone else gets frustrated.

Please stop feeding the bear.

 

I was going through the latest "tabloid-style comments" from the rubber chicken section to see if there was anything of educational value. This was it ...singletrack correcting spirot on wrongly assuming it was me who suggested engine braking is an adequate substitute for braking.

No spirot, it was actually singletrack who proclaimed in his own words that "...the poll is not 100% accurate anyway, because even I would use "engine braking" if I lost my brakes and wanted the car to stop at some point short of hitting something...".

This telling instance, of over-zealous vilification points to the crux of the denial from the rubber chicken section, where rabid knee-jerk reaction has apparently replaced any possibility of treating the subject of engine braking as intellectual debate. No, heaven forbid, the blasphemer must be put in his place!

Guys, your personal name-calling tactic is wearing very thin. It doesn't take much for people to see through it. You have nothing of substance to add so you resort to intimidation.

You made a mistake assuming that engine braking is just hard downshifting instead of compression braking and now you are having an extremely difficult time admitting it because it was "little old me" who pointed that out to you. Perhaps you can just accept that all of us makes mistakes sometimes, and it's okay. You don't have to continue with your most unflattering display of bad manners.

 

don't feed the bear

 

Don't worry. Enough has been said. I don't see any intellectual benefits to my continuing to answer responses on this subject.

Have a nice evening.

 

Concur, but I think this is actually his personality. The moderators would perma-ban him if he was a pure troll. They are quite the good detectives.

 

haha - I think we need to find out what's the best way to 'slow down' this thread...

 

To answer the OP, I drop it out of gear when I intend to full stop. Holding the clutch strains the throwout bearings, I prefer to drop to neutral when stopped for an expected period of time. I pretty much always downshift and keep it in gear down to 2nd, I'll often drop it into neutral after that, as my large displacement 4 cylinder causes serious nose dive in 1st. ^^

I prefer, to keep rolling as much as possible, although batty drivers using turn lanes to pass me into a red light sometimes makes this difficult.

When racing, its best to keep it in gear, however, engine braking is magnified with each gear you downshift. The longer you are into a braking zone, the more weight transfer you have, the less braking is available to you. its preferred to lock up a front just before the rear, so brake bias will generally be set to account for at least 2nd gear engine braking. If you *really* want to push the limits, you can crack the throttle in situations where the engine braking would get to strong in the shorter gears, and use a heavier rear bias.

Mid corner, engine braking can make the rear end too light, you'll want it in gear, but with just enough gas there is less acceleration effect than braking if you were off throttle.

In the rain, the front tires will clear for your rear tires, in a RWD in the wet, if you have no adjustable brake bias, getting the most engine braking possible is a must.