Oh, I don't know, maybe because the jobless rate here is the lowest it has been in over 7 years? Or because the housing markets have continued to strengthen as of late?
very interesting observations ! would be nice to hear more of your local impressions on a regular basis
Nope, a 918 MSRP is under $1 million in the States but closer to $2.5 Million in China, and the Laf is $3 million in China, so there is no arbitrage opportunity here despite the heavy discounts.
Do you know what the underlying cause of the price differential is? Is it the car manufacturers using territorial price gouging or is it purely from China imposing import duties and/or taxes on premium car purchases?
The latter tax/tariff %s as well as higher margins (there was a bit of a scandal in recent memory due to the marque monopolization if I recall correctly). Imported luxury cars are unbelievably expensive in China... from garden-variety BMW SAVs and Audis on up.
There are now 456 Ferraris for sale on ebay. It was 420 yesterday. I wonder how high that number will eventually grow to...
Thanks for the info. Do you know what taxes and tariffs apply in China for purchases of vintage cars from other countries? There could be day-to-day variances on the best day of the week to list a car, but tracking the daily eBay count over a long period of time could be a pretty good metric for identifying bubblishness.
Here's an article about how the art world is responding to the market situation.. No real difference between a Picasso and an SWB to some collectors... Art Collectors Were Busy Looking for Liquidity During Market Rout - Bloomberg Business Since this is the same moneyed crowd I would expect the results to be similar... If they get a margin call and have to move some tin, it's going to have to happen fast and that could cause ripples.. Just an observation
My guess is the number will grow -- rapidly. Next critical thresholds: 458, 488, 599 and then 612 within a couple weeks? In all seriousness, China has further down to go (a lot further) and it's anyones guess how the US markets will fare. US macro indicators are still healthy but company profit growth expectations have been largely buoyed by a strong China. The more that gets called into question, the more... well, the more people are going to be letting go of their cars as wives start pressing.
Think about the one-two punch of stock market down and ashley mad. I would not be surprised with more cars going up for sale for either divorce proceedings or markets, or both
It's both, import taxes and VAT tax are heavy, but manufactures/dealers also gouge customers. For example, most equipment that are normally optional on cars sold in the US are standard equipment in Chinese market cars. Historically, luxury car buyers are writing the car purchases off from their businesses, or the ultra-luxury buyers usually need a certain type of vehicle for business purposes, so they pay up. But as economic growth slows, and anti-corruption drive killed off the high-end market, manufactures and dealers are struggling to sell cars today.
Well someone is running- 2001 Ferrari 550 Barchetta Serial Number 124161 - main page I hope it's not a race to the bottom!
That's a market correct price for one with 18k miles. Maybe even a little high. I'm not sure what your point is.
To me it is a discussion between the have's and don't have's.... Trying to talk the market down but they does not succeed in it. I never got so many people trying to buy my cars. Most of them collectors btw. Next week I will be in London and will feel the market in real life at the RM auction. Ciao Oscar
First of all I have no idea what the market rate of a 550 B is worth. Its not a car i follow. That is not the point. Its how the ad teads thats interesting. It's the first time in an ad, for a car i have seen, where the seller is attempting to make a claim that this car is a good deal due to high sales price from other sources. Generally the cars have been put up for sale with ever increasing prices - Also please note in all the cars I have looked at for sale in the last year or so. This one now has "or best offer" added to the line. I'll wager this car doesn't sell and you'll see a price reduction. BTW this doesnt mean i think the market will colapse in all areas- i tend to think the "newer" high production cars are over valued.
Oscar, Sign of time, nothing to be upset of. when you and me were young,,,people were asking "how fast" and looking at the speedometer up to 320km/h and say whoa...they had no idea if this was real and how the Miura felt at that speed,,or how wet your seat was...already! later, we were still young, the next question was "how much gas" and when you said 40 litres or 5mpg they said ouch...well we know we spend more on batteries and tires that get too old than on gas, but this was then the reference point. so today it is "how much'. As i usually say, if you ask,,you cannot afford...or make me an offer i cannot refuse... nothing really new, people have just another reference point to evaluate things. May be one day, they will ask "how much CO2?" and when you will say 700g...they will report you to the special pollution unit for clean air crimes,,instigated by the 2020 Clean Air BILL...and they will force you to breathe the rejects of your exhaust system - the last dinosaur of the combustion engine- as a punishment... So you and me don't care about the value, past, present or future, we just want to be surrounded by real car afficionados who share our taste and passion...this is why we are friends!!
Sorry but you're wrong. It's a discussion between the enthusiasts and the speculators. As long as there are people in the market who's only point of being there is to make money from holding onto something, there will be overly inflated prices. And as long as there are auction houses hyping sales whose only job is getting their commissions whether the prices go up or down, there will be speculators drawn into the market. What we are facing is the wiping out of enthusiasts for the advantage of speculators -- until they get burned of course.
This. There are actually far, far, far more people talking "up" prices, it just isn't seen as being that way. For example, if you go through the classifieds, many people say "you can price higher..." "I think you can get more for this" "Great price, these things are going up fast" "This should move quickly at this price" etc. I have NEVER posted anything negative about pricing in the classifieds, even when I think an ask if absolutely hilariously too high. I respect people and the market and so keep that out of there (and, frankly, moderators would remove posts like that too). What does that mean? It means a general upward bias in the discussions. Also, read many of the threads where people actively discuss how they better grab a car now before it goes up in value, or XXXX car will be the "next one". The forums are now focused on value and speculation. Any exotic car forum with cars that have run up are not focused on "ask vs. sale prices" and the markets for the cars. I really find it amusing when someone tries to classify as "haves" vs. "have nots". Seriously amusing because that becomes a personal attack rather than a discussion on the merits.
Well said. And go back and look at how well that one worked out last time Kind of makes it difficult to find the real buyers again when the market is in freefall. We'll all still be on the sidelines watching the circus in amusement.
Talk the market down? The market isn't someone on a ledge or something (though this market may be on the edge...) It cannot be talked down by a couple forum threads. Alan Greenspan tried to talk the market down for years leading up to the housing market crash -- if he cannot talk a market down, a market ostensibly listening to him, then who on earth would suppose some posts on here would or could impact anything. No, these are intelligent discussions (mostly) that observe certain characteristics of what is going on. You may be personally trying to "talk the market up" or something, and I wish you the best of luck with that. This is not haves vs. have nots, and I'm sure there are many, many, many "haves" who see the bubble. Best evidence? The people SELLING their classics into the market now and over the past couple of years. For all the factors that "support" the high market (that you no-doubt believe in) they are taking the other side of the view and selling cars. That is how the market works -- a buyer, and a seller.
I don't know if you have been paying attention but there is no room left for speculators. From 2011 through 2013, I think you could make a case that a growing number of buyers were speculators or "wanna be speculators." The REALLY smart ones were buying in 2009/10. At this point, prices are so high that the risk of buying in the hopes of making a profit are so out of line with any potential returns that only morons would be buying for anything other than for the love the car and the passion. No one in their right mind is buying right now for short term appreciation. That's why you see only great cars getting top prices. All the marginal crap just falls by the wayside - i.e., non desirable examples and salvage title cars and other things that appeal to bottom feeders trying to get into the game. Bob, what you are seeing now is the exact opposite of your statement: the wiping out of the speculators in the advantage of the enthusiasts. When people who buy only for money see that there is no more money to be gained, they move on. There are no returns to be had at these prices so all of us who buy, buy for passion. In other words, your statement is two to three years too late - classic hindsight bias. Consequently, you'll probably agree with my above statement in about 18 months, when you have the benefit of hindsight bias once again.
