Headers:ceramic or blankets.

I'm ordering AP headers this week for my 07 430. I need to know if the ceramic coating will reduce the heat enough to not damage nearby parts. There is a considerable cost savings with ceramic over Capristo blankets ($1400) but not enough to make it worth it if other damage is going to happen. Thanks.

 

From what I understand, you will get ~50 degrees of reduction of temperature from ceramic. I'm unsure of the numbers on blankets, but it's a substantial reduction in radiant heat. That being said, some people run bare headers without "problems". While that is acceptable, the surface temperatures are so high, that anything that hits it would potentially ignite which is another purpose for the OEM or aftermarket blankets. Fluids won't ignite on contact.

 

My personal choice is ceramic + header tape. On both the 360 & 430 it is a huge reduction in engine compartment heat. On the 360 my airbox does not reach 140 deg F even in summer on the racetrack. (no cats)

The cost vs performance of the 2 products are way too close to justify the expense. $100 header tape or $1400 "removable industrial insulation blankets", not a hard choice for me.

 

I got my fabspeeds ceramic coated, 1 coat white inside and 2x coats matt black out, been running them for 8 months now and no problems, water temp is lower than stock and i live in perth australia, so summer temps get to over 40C.
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rmarchjr: if you are using header tape, why do you need ceramic coating as well?

 

I'm running bare AP headers. No ill effects yet.

 

More insulation and very little weight penalty, ceramic is good but still gets very hot well over 500 deg F, the header tape prob lowers surface temp another few hundred deg. Just guessing as I didn't measure. I was measuring air box temps- that was the goal.

 

i'm paranoid, i went with the full header condom by Capristo.

 

Freshmeat do you have capristo headers or just the blankets?

 

Right now, just the blankets. Bought them together w Capristo headers, but did not like how the headers lowered the F1 pitch so went with a 4-1 setup and kept the blankets on those.

 

Which headers did you install? Happy with them? The capristo headers really made the car sound different? In a bad way?

 

Coat your headers. Wrapping them is rarely a good idea. If you ever have any fluid spillage, the wraps will soak it up like a sponge. If that material is flammable then your car will BURN TO GROUND and you will NOT be able to stop it!

Watched that happen to race bikes on a few occasions because the race was too cheap to 'coat' his headers.

Better than ceramic coating is a proprietary coating we use at my shop. 4X the heat retaining properties of ceramic with ultra thin coating. We used it to coat the inside of our zero tolerance turbo housings with NO clearance issues. Those turbos presently have 20,000 miles (track days, etc) and have performed flawlessly!

It is only a marginal increase in price over ceramic. We have been happy with our testing, so far, and continue to use on new product we have created in house, yet have not brought to market.

Regardless of methods used DO NOT WRAP. Seriously.

 

txitalia - please just stop that.

So your saying with the ceramic coating and engine running YOUR product will prevent ignition of flammable material (fuel)? I would like to see that. Please use your coated headers on YOUR ferrari, do a dyno run, spill some fuel on them immediately after and prove how much better your product is. Waiting for the video...

Personally I carry either a fire extinguisher or full fire system on my cars, if you have a fuel spill and its going to hit the headers, coated or wrapped, you will need something to put out the fire. Auto ignition temp on gasoline is about 495 deg F, unless your coating will keep header temps below that, yours will light up just as well as one coated in header tape.

 

Thanks for the imput. I going with my original choice which is ceramic with no wrap for a more sanitary installation. I am replacing the MK1 with 5500 miles and no cracks.The brackets have been replaced under warranty and I am temperarily keeping the OEM cats and exhaust with valve control until I see how it sounds.

 

IMHO, for the air box ., sure the lower the temp, the better performance, but the air only stays there for a very brief period of time. it won't gain that much
the main benefits of heat sheilding is engine bay electronics protection and fire hazard alleviation. no?

 

tian2bing-Electronics protection -yes, I don't think either solution provides any degree of fire protection in the event of a fuel leak. By insulating the header you are keeping the thermal energy in the exhaust - hot air moves faster. Also lowering the intake air temp, cooler denser air, a 40 deg F temp difference in the box/filter assembly will result in a bit of power. I believe it's in the range of 1-3% total.

On a street car I agree w you not very significant, on a challenge car 3% improvement is very significant.

 

agreed!
but are you saying 3% bump on horsepower?

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do you happen to know the ignition point for engine oils/gearbox oils/ATF?

we might want to protect against those leaks.

 

Hmmm, let me chime in with my thoughts/opinion on this topic...

Blankets or coating or wrapping or not, the same amount and degree of heat is still being produced.

The purpose of a blanket is not to reduce this amount of heat created, instead it's about creating an "insulation" barrier of sorts that can enable the heat to disperse out / be redirected more rapidly elsewhere away from the central area of the engine bay where there is better outwards airflow e.g. rear of the car

Couple that with a heat shield around the airbox and you will see that most of the heat will be refocused towards the rear of the car (exhaust) where there is better ventilation/airflow, rather allowing the air to circulate around the engine bay. This is what help keeps the overall ambient engine bay temperature lower.

To be honest, I think the coating is garbage in the effort of lowering engine bay temps or protection against fire etc, because again as I mentioned earlier, the same amount of heat is still being produced...it may briefly slow how fast it radiates outward, but eventually it all comes out and cooks the air around it...some thin layer of coating isn't going to prevent that.

Blankets remain cool to the touch even after a full day of hot laps. I will bet my car that you cannot say the same for a coating or a wrap Again, the goal is to help redirect the heat elsewhere (rear of the car) not to absorb the heat.

 

Well first of all...maybe the genius should've wrapped the bottom section of the airbox rather than just the box covers...most of the heat isn't from the sun in the sky, but rather from stuff underneath

 

+1 - I work in the industrial insulation business and we deal with hydrogen furnaces and whatnot and I agree completely with FM on this matter. Lower charge air equals horsepower, pure and simple, so preventing engine bay heat soak by any means possible is preferable. microns thick coating simply will not remove enough heat to compete with a thicker product.

The stuff about the fires is BS as if you have a significant fuel spill in any hot engine bay a fire will result regardless of whats on your headers. Besides ceramic is inert and carries a much higher melting point than say, aluminum........

 

Mostly right and partly wrong. coatings, blankets, etc. all add resistance to the thermal path into the engine bay. In other words, they slow the movement of heat through the material. Think of a pot on the stove; some have metal handles that don't really get hot and some the heat moves up the handle quickly. That is because they have different thermal conductivity (inverse of resistance).

Anything with a lower thermal conductivity will keep the engine bay cooler. That means that a coating keeps the engine bay cooler than a straight pipe EVEN IF the exterior of the pipe reaches a similar temp. That happens because heat can't move across the junction as quickly with the coating. Blankets are cooler still IF they have a higher thermal resistance.

So what happens to the heat that doesn't go into the engine bay when you have a coating or blanket? Easy, it goes out the tailpipe as hotter exhaust gas.

 

+1 Skidkid - excellent explanation - (K factor-thermal resistance- of materials is the key)
Freshmeat- I'll take your bet

On my CH car which has both ceramic + wrap(not a product most people do not have access to) yes you can touch the header directly and not burn yourself.

When can I pick up your,er my new car? I'm hoping for a Scud...

 

Skidkid basically just summed up what I had said in more laymen terms...

So, you're saying your "magic coating" can redirect 100% of the heat generated away from the headers for it to remain cool to the touch after a full day of hot laps? Ok I want market value cash for my Scuderia if I win this bet, and proprietary rights to this said coating so I can sell it to nasa.

Let's do this! Even pots and pans completely made of the same material throughout get hot to the touch after awhile! Can't wait to buy another Ferrari with my winnings.

 

Hay Freshy - I was not poster with the magic ceramic coating- nor was I poster with the insulated airboxes - reread, but I am the one who would enjoy busting your chops about the statement below...

As I did state - I am using both a ceramic coating (limited value due to a high K-factor) and header wrap ($100 and much lower K). And there is no question you can put your hand in and touch the header without hurting your hand. You said "cool to the touch" kinda subjective isn't it? What temperature is that? My less costly solution is still "warm to the touch" but within the OSHA personnel protective requirement of below 140 deg F. I would win your bet. The reason the blankets are effective is because they trap dead air around the header. Other then total vacuum - air is most effective insulator. Almost every insulation product (ceramics being the exception)is designed to trap air space around the object in question, that is why a higher density insulation like ceramic materials are much less effective - higher K value, then say a fiberglass in equal thicknesses. The real benefit to the ceramics is the high temp limits, man made vitreous(MMVF) fiber type insulations are limited to max temp of about 1200 deg F where some ceramics can be used above 3000F.

I have sold materials to space agencies, military, and every industrial application you could name. You'd lose your bet, but as I hate to see a grown man cry I won't take you up on it.