The Fchat GOAT poll - at last!

Pedro why isn't senna in your top 5? You clearly know a lot about f1 but to be fair I think you also attach a lot of hate to certain drivers and don't give them a fair assessment

 

Did you read my first post? you'll find the answer there. I'm not as "old" as you probably think i am, so i have to base my opinions on what i read and watch from old videos....(have almost every race from 1970 onwards) so the trick is to "listen" and "read", and so learn from the best avaiable sources, and in terms of Motorsport, namely f.1, DEnnis Jenkinson and Nigel Roebuck are the ones for me...there are of course many other great names, but these 2 clearly do it for me.
At the time of his death, Jimmy was by far the class of the field, and already regarded by many as the best f.1 driver of all times. His speed was legendary, he would drive anything fast, an f.1 or a cortina Lotus, he was smood, and when something failed on the car (Lotus were never very reliable) he simply adapted, changed a bit his driving and kept doing the same times...un unbelievable natural talent.....i think the only guy who didn't rate him as much as everyone else was jack Brabham, don't know why, but "Black Jack" was a different sort of driver, he used to put the wheels on the gravel in order to project that same gravel over his folowers, some times breaking their driving glasses and hurting them, forcing them to let got and stay further behind!!! When he was besides Jimmy at the start, he used to wave and point at his car, like if there was something wrong with it, in order to upset Clark....a real class act!!
But besides him, both journalists and drivers, and also the public regarded Jimmy as the best and if you read and watch some of his races you see how special he was. As for Gilles, i grew up watching him, and i never, ever saw anyone display such talent and courage, his car control was beond anyone else, i heard from more than one person that he and Jimmy were the only ones that always knew where they were during a spin, when Gilles spun, he would simply pop the clutch at the right time and move on his way, do you know that at one time during practice Gilles went into a 360º spin and kept going...he was being timed, he only lost 1 second on that lap to the previous one!!!I have all his races, and i remenber him well, i then saw Prost, Piquet, ayrton, and none of them came even close to Gilles....It's true, i didn't like any of them since they were not driving a ferrari, but this doesn't afect my reasoning....Ayrton was very, very good, but not on the same level as Gilles....You know, Jenkinson once took a flight together with Ayrton, they chated during all the time and Ayrton felt it was a big compliment when D.J said he reminded him of Gilles, in fact when Ayrton was asked once about his favourite driver , or hero, he mentioned he admired Gilles.
So, It's Gilles for me first, than Jimmy. Fangio was amazing, he drove in the most dangerous time of all, and managed 5 championships!! he drove Le mans, the panamericana, the mm, everything, had some serious accidents, but survived, had amazing team mates, like Moss, and beat them, and then there was Nurburgring, when he recovered several minuts to take both Ferraris, Hawthorn an Collins and win the race and the title, that's the stuff of legend!!! So these 3 had to be. BOth D.J and N. Roebuck put Moss on their top list, in fact N.R regards him as the best ever, and i can see why. He was 4 times vice champion driving inferior cars (except the merc), he had amazing wins in the rain and against the far better Ferraris, he won the mm,(in fact he was better at sports cars and gts than Fangio), and if not for his accident he would have bee driveing for Ferrari and surely would have won a lot more....i had to put him to. As for Michael, i saw him against Ayrton, and he beat him more than often, i think he had a stronger race pace than Senna, and was just as good in the wet, and above all, Shummy made his cars getting better, his input was determinant for it, in a way that only Niki ever did before him, so to me he was also better than Ayrton. So, if it's true that i never liked Ayrton, it's also true that i always knew just how good he is....problem is i think there were better guys out there....but it's hard to decided a top 5, and i perfectly understand why so many choose Ayrton.

 

Not gonna vote as current drivers as well as great drivers from the past are missing.

 

I too feel sorry that Alesi isn't there Andreas, i fully understand you..

 

That comment about the 360 is very interesting. Imagine that would be neer impossible in a modern f1 car though. What I don't get is if Gilles is so good how did he lose the title to his team mate? Was it 78 or 79? I get that even the bestowe to a team mate now and then but just wondering.

What can be said of modern drivers? No one gets to push to the limit anymore and it's a sad state of affairs that tyre and fuel management are a thing in f1. If there is any good material readily available on the internet then send it my way. Some I have probably seen but more is always good.


Yes a shame about current drivers being excluded I wanted to see what popular opinion was on Vettel vs Hamilton vs alonso battle

 

Seriously 4 of my 5 choices are not available. So whats the point?

 

It was in 79, that year in particular had some very strange rules....they splited the season in 2 halfs and only considred the 4 best results from each half. For startes, Jody was very, very good, he almost beat Niki to the title while driving fron the new "WOLF" team. He was a lot more experienced than Gilles, while they had almost the same age, Gilles only had one full season behind him, Jody was already a veteran, having driven for Mclaren, Tyrrel and Wolf. He had alreay been aproached by Ferrari but refused the first time, now he accepted and was the first driver of the team.
That year it's hard to tell wich was the ebst car...Williams and Ligier had by far teh best chassis and aerodinamics, both well above the Ferrari...Ferrari started the year with the t3, with litle success, Ligier seemed to be the best team at the time, williams were fast but very unreliable, lotus also fast but also unreliable....a couple of races later Ferrari introduced the new t4 and Gilles won 2 races in a row...The t4 had the ebst engine, was very reliable but was no match for willimas , ligier, lotus and others in terms of ground efect, the boxer engine was to wide and prevented the team to fully use the sidepods to make ground efect. While Jody finished every race except for the last one (if i'm not mistaken), Gilles had several DNFs and that made the diference. Also there were team orders, and so they never fought on the track....when Gilles was ahead, Jody never caught up with him, when it was the other way around, Gilles folowed Jody like a shadow but respected orders and never atempted to pass, even if he was much faster. For example at Monaco he was always on Jody's tale but near the end, his transmission failed and he had to retire (during practice, jody went out and made a fast time, Gilles went out and made a faster one, that wen on during all practice untill Jody hang up his helmet and sais..It's no use, he's simply faster tan me...unfortunatly on saturday Gille's car had a problem and he only managed second position.....than at Zolder, Gilles tangled at the begining of the race with Reutman i think, and had to pit for a new front wing...he droped to the back of the field and started to cut trough the field, he was always beating the lap record, and near the end he took trid position, he kept pressing and atacked second place but in the last lap he ran out of fuel!! Jody won the race....in the second Half of teh season, The williams become reliable and they were tha car to beat, Jones won 4 races, his only oposition was Gilles....in Holland, Gilles was ahead after an amazing overtaking outside The Tarzan curve, but a pucture sent him off....Jody made it so second position.....Gilles had to win the the last 3 races to win the title, but in Monza Ferrari askes him to let Jody win, he oblidge, Folowed jody all race long and never tried to overtake....he wa sthan second in canada and won the last race.
It was basicly fortune and reliability that gave Jody the title...

 

Sheckter himself said that Gilles was the fastest driver he's ever known. Like we always say, its more than just stats and championships. Some people just have "it".

Among the current group, I think Verstappen is the only one that looks to have "it". Its too early to tell, but something says that kid's got something special in him. As good as Hamilton and Alonso are, they're not top 5 for me. I'd say somewhere between 9-12 if I go through the list again. Vettel maybe top 20-25. I think he got lucky. He's got skill, but he hasn't won me over yet.

 

I have to say....wow....that was a fantastic read. thank you very much.

 

You are exactly right....there would have always been SOME nursing of cars for either fuel or tyres, but now it's like the whole race is an endurance race instead of a sprint. Maybe it's just because he get so much more information...don't know....but pretty much no one drives a significant part of a race flat out these days.

 

Who from the current grid do you think are in the top 5 GOAT? I think a couple might break the top 10 by the time their career is completed, but I frankly do not see anyone on the current grid making it into the top 5.

 

Villeneuve was one of the last "gentleman" drivers. in 1979 Jody Scheckter was the defacto team leader. Mr. Ferrari organized it that way, he was paying Jody more money. in 78 Villeneuve was coming into his own, but was still rough on the machinery, while Jody was at the peak of his career... he had shed the reckem sheckter ways... and was playing to win.

it has to be said that Villeneuve could have won the championship by simply not follwing team orders... but he had a personal rapport with Scheckter and there was mutual respect. Villeneuve respected the agreement that Scheckter was #1. that is why he finised #2 in the championship. .... also if you look at that year - Scheckter did not win as many races but he placed in almost every race, where Villeneuve either won, or dropped out ( accident or mechanical fault - mostly accident...)

In 1982 I speculate that it could have been His year, they had the making of a great car, Pironi was not as good at development as Villeneuve was, and Lauda was friendly with Villeneuve and Gilles was listening to Lauda's advice ... on how to work at Ferrari ... and how perhaps he should look at McLaren as well in 83.... alas we will never know. however the one thing that separates Villeneuve from Senna... apart from the championships, was Villeneuve was a sportsman with chivalry... and honnor... Senna ... not so much.

 

Neither do i, perhaps a top 10 for Vettel, depends on what he will be able to do with ferrari......but it won't be easy....Between Seb and Elton i just have to remenber 2008, when Seb beat him in an inferior car in a straight figt in Brazil.....pure talent, no BS...

 

To Toil...Just read this quotes and you'll understand...especially Keke's:

Jacques Laffite quote:

"I know that no human being can do a miracle. Nobody commands magical properties, but Gilles made you wonder. He was that quick."

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Frank Williams quote:

"I was very proud of Alan that day. We had the best car at the time, without a doubt, and the only driver on the track we feared was that little French Canadian ..."

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Niki Lauda quote:

"Gilles was the perfect racing driver who knew where to take which advantage where ..." "Villeneuve had the best talent of all of us. Whatever car that you put him in he would have been quick."

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Didier Pironi quote:

"When I joined Ferrari the whole team was so devoted to Gilles. I mean he was not just the top driver, he was much more than that. He had a small family there. ... he made me fit right in and I felt at home right away
overnight and Gilles made no distinctions either ...I was expecting to be put in my place, I was not number one. I was number two. He treated me like an equal all the way."

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Jackie Stewart quote:

"Oh, I think he's superb, and I believe he'll get better and better. At the moment he still makes mistakes, misses the odd apex, gets up on a curb, uses a little too much road on the way out sometimes, but i'm being hypercritical here. His level of natural talent is phenomenal - there's real genius in his car control."

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Gilles quote:

"I love motor racing. To me it's a sport, not a technical exercise. My deal Formula One car would be something like a McLaren M23 with a big normally aspirated engine, 800 hp, 21 inch rear tyres. A lot of people say we
should have narrower tires, but I don't agree because you need big tyres to slow you down when you spin. And you need a lot of horsepower to unstick big tyres, to make the cars slide. That would be a bloody fantastic spectacle, I can tell you. We would take corners one gear lower than we do now, and get the cars sideways. You know, people still rave about Ronnie Peterson in a Lotus 72, and I understand that. I agree with them.
That's the kind of entertainment I want to give the crowds. Smoke the tyres ! Yeah ! I [care about the fans], because I used to be one of them ! I believe the crowd is really losing out at the moment, and that's
bad."

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Walter Wolf quote:

"[Gilles] is a super, super, super talented driver with the ability which happen very seldom. A man gets so much ability, so much feeling for a car".

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Enzo Ferrari Quote:

" ...and when they presented me with this tiny Canadian, this miniscule bundle of nerves, I instantly recognized in him the physique of the great Nuvolari and I said to myself, `let's give him a try."

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Rene Arnoux Quote:

"It was terrible when Gilles died. I cried that day and the next one, too, even though I had to race ...and I remember the feeling that we were all starting equal, from now on. Villeneuve was gone. We all knew he had a
talent beyond our reach."

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Alain Prost Quote:

" ...with me and my competitors it's battle for pole position as that's important but with Gilles you will see a battle for everything ...[including] 10th place ..."
"He made the fastest start of anybody here. I thought he must know a trick ...all season he had quicker starts, no one could compare"

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Juan Manuel Fangio Quote:

"He will remain as a member of the family of the truly great drivers in auto racing history. Mr Enzo Ferrari, who is an authority on these matters, has compared Villeneuve to Tazio Nuvolari. Nuvolari in my younger days was the great idol. All drivers wanted to equal the great Nuvolari. They struggled to match but could only imitate him. To be compared to Nuvolari is to receive the highest praise. Villeneuve did not race to finish, he did not race for points. He raced to win. Although small in stature he was a giant."

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Keke Rosberg Quote:

"To Gilles, racing truly was a sport, which is why he would never chop you. Something like that he'd look on with contempt. You didn't have to be a good driver to do that, let alone a great one. Anyone could do that.
Gilles was the hardest ******* I ever raced against, but completely fair. If you'd beaten him to a corner, he accepted it and gave you room. Then he'd be right back at you at the next one! Sure, he took unbelievable risks - but only with himself - and that's why I get ****ed off now when people compare Senna with him. Gilles was a giant of a driver, yes, but he was also a great man."

 

1) Senna
2) Schumacher
3) Stewart
4) Clark
5) Prost

Gilles is my all-time favorite driver, and as a driver was without peer. But at the end of the day, when I think GOAT, I'm thinking championships, influence, and capability.

Gilles certainly had influence and capability, but didn't sustain it for unfortunate reasons. I think Senna was the embodiment / spirit of Gilles in a person that just shattered everyone when he was on (qualifying, wins, and championships are evidence).

Schumacher - obvious. Most wins, most poles, most championships, etc.

Stewart - seems like too many are overlooking a man whose influence over the sport is significant. Still top-10 in winning percentage (although he is below Clark), but winning championships with a garagiste and having the balls to tell promoters to shove it deserves a vote of "greatest"

Clark got my nod at fourth because of the above, and Furoni's post sums up a lot - the man was fast in anything. Didn't hurt that he also walked the field at Indy - died much too young.

Prost - I hated him, still do. But he wasn't called "The Professor" for nothing.

 

Interesting early showing in the results. Very clear top 4 - Schu, Senna, Fangio, Clark. Not too much disagreement there. All the arguments look to be shaping up for the last slot… Personally, I hope a few more Gilles supporters come out of the wood work. Prost? No idea why he's doing so well… Never liked his style of racing - a bit too 'Mayweather' for me - defence first, excitement, style and substance second.

 

People who perhaps were not around when Prost was driving in the 80's dont remember how dominant he was. dont forget he could have been World Champion in 82, 83, 84 .... on top of winning in 85 & 86 the first back to back since Brabham.

I personally think the Movie Senna did Prost a huge amount of damage... he does not deserve that. he was - is an extreemly sincere and nice guy... during the days his ego was a bit fragile, and the French press used to wind him up pretty tight... but he was a superb Driver. I think the fact that Senna admired him... and perhpas even feard him is why Senna was so vehement in his fight to beat Prost.

watching Prost on track in person ... was underwhelming... until you saw the times and he was always there. at the top. if anything his years at Ferrari show just how good he was in a very average car.

 

That's why Prost is in my top 5. He was automatic. You knew when he hopped in the car, he was impressing you without any flair. Senna you knew you were in for a show and maybe Prost was his motivation. Prost was the best at the time, Senna wanted to be the best so he went out every race to prove it.

 

I almost put Prost as number 5, but went with Sir Jackie because a) I think his role in pushing for driver safety in F1 is a pretty significant deal and b) he seemed unbeatable when I first started watching F1 as a kid...he WAS F1 to a youngster (to the point I disliked Emmo for becoming champ after he retired...kid logic, you know)

I will admit I don't like Prost, but it has more to do with the fact that I've always felt politics were on his side in the battle with Senna (F1 is EXTREMELY political, which is why I rate Senna as the GOAT...he was basically anti-establishment). Still, he is undoubtedly a great driver but people like me feel that the support by Balestre was too influential and cast a shadow on his career.

 

I put Alain fifth, although I didn't much like the person he was due to the politics, and back in the day, there was definitely a England-France thing, but you cannot ignore his ability to calculate where to be and what to do, and resulted in very good wins and championships. My second choice was ayrton, and it was the Prost Senna battle that really ignited the fires for me about F1 as a youngster, although I had been watching for a while.

I think the love exuded for Senna will forever be linked with ayrtons agression towards Prost (he was aggressive, as others have said, because Prost was the best, and Senna was out to beat him at all costs, not because he wanted to knock his block off, although I'm sure he felt like that sometimes!) and the skill of the man is then replaced in the mind by the political moves to help him

 

Michael was always, and will always be, my number one driver. His precision, dedication, professionalism and attrition was an inspiration to all. People that didn't like him were simply those afraid of his ability, and those that love him forgive him the moments where he let his heart and determination get the better of his decision making