The Fchat GOAT poll - at last!

agreed. Schumachers work ethic and determination was just insane.

 

..Never liked Prost but the guy was fast as hell, he was up against one of the fastest drivers of the 80 in the same car (ené Arnoux) and he was doilding as many poles as René, then at Ferrari he managed to be as fast in qualy as Nige....Nige could be a bit rough around the edges but there is no doubt he was bloody fast!! Thing is Post prefered to concentrate on the race, rather than on qualy.....and remenber, The 2 years he was with Senna, he always ended up racking more points, he was defeated by the points sistem, not by results....thats why Roebuck for example rates him higer than senna....i don't, first because Senna was just faster, and could drive in the rain....Prost..not so much...

 

There used to be an old joke, if the crowd spat enough as he went by, and Prost saw his visor get wet, he'd pit for tyres! It wasn't foolproof, but the impression was true, he wasn't a wet race fan (neither was I to be honest, i always struggled in the wet, especially on bikes, blame the arrogant driving style I guess)

 

To me the best have always been the smoothest... Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Prost etc... today its harder to spot a "smooth driver" as the cars are so alike... and dont move as much.

But Jackie Stewart is right smooth is fast, and if you watch in car of the guys noted above - you'll see they are not all arms & elbows, its just a nice fluid movement a little correction here and there... but its all under control. Senna was a bit wilder in the beginning but towards the end he was very smooth as well.

When I was at the Winfield School at Le Castellet - Simon deLatour the guy that taught Prost - said that you should handle the steering wheel and controls of the car like they are made of egg shells. gentle - build up the speed, but keep it all smooth.

the other great advice from Jackie Stewart is to take corners one gear higher than you think you need... you are smoother and usually will end up faster at the end of the straight.

Smooth is fast and smooth makes champions!

 

Very much true, that's why i am even more amazed by Gilles or Ronnie, they could drive faster sideways than the others straigth!!!

 

1. You had your chance to add him in the "pre-selection" thread.
2. Read the poll Q again; I said "add anyone you like"......



Cheers,
Ian

 

+1

Fred and/or Elton *may* just get into the top 10 eventually, but certainly not yet IMO.

I just really, really, hope that the others - don't really care who, but F would be nice - can take the fight to Merc next season. Otherwise, Elton is going to keep on breaking "records" and we'll never hear the end of it!

Again, I'm no hater, have much respect for his ability, but top 10? Not a chance in hell, at least at this stage.

Cheers,
Ian

 

In the 'what if' category, I wonder 'what if' if Senna had won even
one championship driving a Ferrari?
If the voting would be different?

I have a hard time voting for guys I have never see drive, not even
film of. I KNOW they were great (Ascari, Moss, Fangio) but I don't
know the level of competition, ala Schumi had little competition during
MOST of the championships he won.

 

+1

Legendary? YES.

GOAT? Nope.

 

Ian, while Alesi is my second all time f.1 driver, and i believe that in the wet he owes nothing to the likes of Senna and Shumacher, and in the day he could fight and beat them, in the overall picture i simply cannot consider him as good as them (althoug i believe he had enough talent to do it), so, he might be my favourite but i can separate things.....but i will tell you this, between any of the current drivers and including Mika hakkinen, i would rate Jean above all of them in a heartbeat.

 

Once this poll is done, how about a top 5 GOAT F1 cars poll? Clearly the car is more important than the driver, so isn't that worth a go?

 

Thank you for the kind words...Today I was in Goodwood and again looked at the old Lotus 25 and I am always amazed how fragile they look compared to every other F1 before and after...

There is a funny story about Alesi. I remember there was a documentation years ago about the year after Schumacher left Benetton and Alesi and Berger joined.
At the first test day Alesi and Berger climbed into the car and were hoping to have done a great move joining the WDC and WCC winning team. After a few laps both of them came into the pits and looked a little bit dissapointed and told the mechanics the car was crap. Being used to specific comments from Micheal the years before the mechanics asked both Alesi and Berger what is crap and what they should change. Alesi and Berger looked at each other and said "the whole car is crap" and went for lunch
To be honest I never looked that much into Alesi but the funniest day was when he stranded without fuel (I think it was at Hockenheim in the forest) after the pits told him three laps he should come in...I sometimes had the impression that he loved the "savoir vivre" to much to be really dedicated to racing like Schumacher was.

 

I was driven at mugello by Jean at an event once, had to be one of the most relaxed drivers I've ever been in a car with, but the car was on rails around the place, he had prodigious pace even when he seemed like he wasn't trying! A very nice chap to be around

 

How can anyone vote for anyone but schumi did you people see that man drive .

 

Good question. I can't imagine Schumacher won't win this poll, based on what he did to revive the Scuderia after a 25-year run of mediocrity. Had Senna driven for and won with Ferrari, he would most likely be leading the poll.

 

I forgot to include Prost in my vote.

 

I get that a GOAT is not just defined by pure statistics, otherwise the sequence would be MS, Fangio, Vettel, Prost, Senna and we would not need a poll.

So subjective criteria come into the play. Makes sense.

However what I disagree with is the rather arbitrary decision to exclude current drivers:
- What if MS would still be driving? Would you exclude him from the poll as well? The man who dominated the sport for years and amassed the most titles, points, records etc?
- What if you had this idea just a few years ago? Would you have still not included MS?

Yes, including current drivers brings some "emotional baggage" with it. I have that too when it comes to a guy like MS, but even I have to look beyond that and be honest towards the results he achieved.

And I think the same logic applies to a guy like Vettel. You don't become a 4 times WDC with a truck load of records in the sport without being a GOAT. You cannot hold it against him that he hasn't retired yet. And why should he? He has a good chance to get another (couple?) WDCs and then what? Still no GOAT?

For practicality reasons you can't include everybody. Understood and Bellof would have only gotten a few votes (mine for sure). But to exclude current drivers with an accomplished track record (as in WDCs or at least multiple WDCs) is IMHO doing this poll a disservice.

PS: Putting Gurney in and leaving Mario out? C'mon! I've met both drivers and love them dearly but please, if space on your roster is so limited...

 

We can certainly give it a go; Would also need a "pre-selection" thread for nominations; I can name a few I'd consider, but there's certainly more..... I'll start another thread; Could also be fun.

Cheers,
Ian

 

+1

But he isn't, & I didn't.....

Understood. Maybe I got it wrong. Yes it was an arbitrary decision, same as excluding the pre-war guys but with some thought behind it; I didn't want the thread to go down the crapper like so many others with constant bickering! We've got *more* than enough of that as it is.

Again, fair enough. I did also note in the question you were free to nominate anyone else you wanted..... I feel you're "cutting off your nose to spite your face" here though.

Fair comment. TBH, Dan was a little "nod" to Isobel who proposed him. As for Mario, I'll stick with my assertion that he's not top 5 in F1. Overall GOAT? Maybe. Would you vote for Mario? Anyone else want to vote for Mario? [I'll "allow" this to be a sixth pick so as not to exclude those who've already voted.... ]

Cheers,
Ian

 

No I would not vote for Mario but never in a million years would I have put Gurney there. There are a dozen guys who would come first. And I like and admire Dan. Met him a couple of times incl back in the seventies in his shop

 

Fair enough.

I probably agree, but as I said, Isobel mentioned him, and I like Is!

TBH, same with Emmo; personally, not "my guy", but someone suggested he should be there, so he got included.

Arbitrary? Sure.

But I do think the results are "telling".

Cheers,
Ian

 

Much appreciated Sir I... Given the circumstances, the old Lemans winner isn't doing badly against stiff competition. And as mentioned, he did outpoint and outqualify Black Jack during his tenure. He is one of the Greatest of All Time, imho, no question My snapshot of greatness sounds exactly like ...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9oZ6djVgco , unbelievably grounded (except at the Ring)..

 

So Schumi is GOAT? Fair enough. A worthy champion and a credible chief GOAT. Senna makes a worthy deputy GOAT. What a shame their careers didn't overlap more.

 

Well, i'm a bit surprised by some things (or not) like Prost racking up more votes than Gilles or Niki, Senna more vores than Jimmy (i knew many can't vote Gilles, it's like giving an oscar of best movie to sci fie movie) but this being F.Chat, i expected...a bit more...oh well i never much liked the popular things.....

 

For me, 3 names come on top immediatly

Fangio
Clark
Prost

after that it's far more difficult

Lauda
Piquet

but Moss also perhaps.


I may shock some, but I never considered either Senna, nor Schumacher as great drivers; very successful yes, but not great. It takes more than statistics to make someone great.
As for Villeneuve, he was spectacular, but not great.

It's a pity Andretti wasn't mentioned...