F-22 question

Star Wars has arrived

Perhaps they can put a chrome job on the F-22 and shine it up to look like a mirror ?


The AC-130J will also get these wild toys - lasers.

I would rather have a phaser . (from the original series - 1966).

 

Great media spin..there was more to the cancellation of the F-22 program.."proven right" has no merit...
The better question might be why was the X-35 was chosen over the X-32..in the first place.
This changing of platforms every few years proves to more of a gimick then actual dollar value..expecially with the advances in technology, drones etc...the same arguments used to be made of the B-52..and its still flying...

 

No, actually there was not more to the F-22 cancellation. It was purely political, just like the B-2 program. Just when we get to where economies of scale would kick in, McCain (Navy/Marines first forever) and know-nothings in DoD attack a program. The F-22 debacle got both the SecAF and Chief of Staff USAF fired because they would not toe the line. The live cruise missles at Barksdale were used as a convenient excuse to fire them.

 

Required reading:

F-22 Raptor Program Cancellation: Will we learn from it? | DefenseReview.com (DR): An online tactical technology and military defense technology magazine with particular focus on the latest and greatest tactical firearms news (tactical gun news), tac

Art

 

That author needs to reassess his view. In other words, he would be writing a different story today.

I won't disagree entirely on the MIC dragging it's feet but do trend the development of the F-22 along with this country's political climate as well.

Regarding "upgrade/improvement/modernization of the F-15 Eagle, F-16 Falcon, and F/A-18 Hornet... it's probably too late for that (high airframe hours).

And please, comparing the B-52 with fighter aircraft is beyond apples and oranges.

 

Lots of BS out there written by folks from their own point of view. If we had built 132 B-2s, we would probably not need the LRS-B yet and we would not be talking about a 6th gen fighter this early if we had built the 700 plus F-22s as planned. Great way to waste the taxpayers' money when perfectly good programs are terminated prematurely. Our foot soldiers would not enjoy fighting without air superiority.

 

'Will we learn from it'

Given the number of prior examples the answer is obviously no. I suggest making the contracts a little more blunt. You deliver this, this, and this before you get paid another dime. Instead of 'well you make a good effort and delivered 60% two yrs late so we'll pay you 80% and give you another 2 yrs to get it right'. Of course you'll have to make sure the guvmint doesn't keep changing the specs every 6 months as well. Big $$$ and moving targets equals even bigger $ wasted.

 

The problem with that is the moving target technology. Moore's law gets in the way. You end up with 386s running the Shuttle as an example. There has to be some movement to take into account that moving target.

Art

 

Yes and no. It doesn't help readiness if hostilities break out and a system hasn't been fielded because we continually try to improve it with the latest and greatest before putting into production. F-15 production is just now winding down after 40yrs. It played a major role in the Cold War. We could have delayed serial production and waited until the C/D version was designed, except a paper F-15 would not have been much of a deterent to the Soviets. The procurement process has been near sighted since the mid 80's because there is no immediate threat. Hard to fight a war with the military we have now if we keep waiting for the military of the future.

 

I watched a show yesterday on the Smithsonian Channel that mentioned the Air Force's full effort towards nuclear delivery (1950s). Then Viet Nam happened and there was nothing in the inventory for close air support.

Some lessons are never learned.

 

Prior to Vietnam the AF thought they didn't need guns either. After Korea it was the age of missiles. Then Vietnam happened. At least the F-22 and F-35 do have a guns, albeit they both require doors to be operable (just one of a gazillion on the F-35B).

 

Lots of BS also written by people with no personal experience on any of the acquisition programs...nor support, operation costs, and sustainment of the systems...
B2 was a cost nightmare, as was the F-22 amongst other problems mentioned...easy to arm chair quarterback after the fact...
Depot support on existing airframes has kept many aircraft flying, and will continue...
I dont think the US has to worry about air superiority...now or in the future...

 

I was on the F-22 test team at AFOTEC, so have a bit of experience. Plus being a weapon school graduate. The fact of the matter is yes, we do have to worry about air superiority, with both China and Russia producing Gen 5 fighters, the Chinese two types, one air superiority and the other attack. Our AF is a shadow of itself now with manning as far down as we can go. The same goes for fighter squadrons and average age of aircraft.

So if that was aimed at me, put up your qualifications.

 

When I see threads like this one, and there have been a few just in this forum; my initial inclination is to get on here and spill my guts on all the things I saw first hand while building them that directly affected the cost of each unit. Because they didn't have to cost what they actually did, far from it.

The temptation is almost overwhelming to go into exacting detail as to what entities were directly responsible for the waste we all had to endure with our mouths shut during the entire life of the program. But it would do no good because they're not coming back.

And there are far too many armchair quarterbacks here and elsewhere that have cemented opinions about things like this that have no clue about any of it. Most folks merely regurgitate what they hear on the media outlets of their choice; mostly false information, inaccurate dollar figures on the cost of each plane we built, tested, and delivered and ridiculous claims about their capabilities or lack thereof. When we were building them, we could pull up the DD-250 for any plane just like it was a blueprint and see exactly what the USAF paid for each one. Then when you read some report in the media stating some overly inflated figure you just have to laugh it off as the joke the media is.

But even if all the facts came out and everyone's "opinions" were corrected and brought in line with actual facts… there still will never be another Raptor built, so what's the use. Plus, I don't need to go and get my butt fired for saying too much or being too specific. But, boy oh boy would it be a weight off my chest if I could… Under different conditions, I'd love to build a thousand more!

As a reply to part of Jim Curry's post above; modern fighters still have guns simply because fighter pilots insist that they have them, overwhelmingly so. Aircrews have a lot of input on the requirements of new aircraft design.

 

Tim- Amen.

 

Without a gun how can you strafe women & children?

 

It's easy, you just don't lead them as muc.... I guess the Army will have to do it
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Parry and riposte!

 

+111

...and let's not even get started talking about the shadow in leadership. In spite of us having more recent combat experience than at any other time since VN, our leadership ranks are filled with rows of sycophantic officers and politicians who have agreed for us to fight our wars with one hand tied behind our backs and with a pirate patch over one eye, with the obvious result being nearly 20 years of watching our children die needlessly as currency in a global war that virtually no average American really gives a rat's @$$ about because they barely remember it's still going on.

 

With all the nasty and potentially disastrous crap that's going on without any of our leaders (and in other country also) doing anything to face and stop it , I keep thinking back to 1937 and Neville Chamberlin and his face to face with Hitler to get " Peace in our time." Now we are faced again with political inertia and illusions and I can see history repeating itself. " Those who do not learn from....."

 

That requires a leader to get us behind a cause.

Know of any available?


Speaking for myself and a couple hundred million other Americans I see no reason to go anywhere and spend a bunch of money, get a bunch of our people killed only to lose interest and come home again. If indeed it needs doing, it needs finishing and that requires support from the stockholders of the USA and that requires leaders. In the 68 square miles surrounded by reality we call Washington DC I am not aware of one.

 

That sir, was beautiful!