Daytona carb help

My Daytona is leaking from the banjo bolts shown that go to each carb does anyone know the size of the fiber? Washers that fit here? I have tightened them several times and have fears of stripping the carb threads.. I assume there is one on each side of the bolt, need enough to do all 6 bolts..thanks Chuck Coli
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Shouldn't be too hard to take it off for measuring and replacing.

When you say banjo bolts, does that mean that _several_ are leaking? Has the car been sitting for a long time? If the fiber dries up, they may leak a little before soaking up again. I've also seen metal rings used, coppers can by heated soft again, aluminum must be replaced. Careful when tightening up dried up seals, banjo fittings are quite safe but many carbs have been ruined with trying to seal up by tightening the screws when the problem is in the dried up seal.

 

I have had so many of the non Weber fiber washers leak I have given up on them. It is also not typically an industry standard to use aluminum on fuel fittings because it shreds a little and fragments can get into the carbs causing problems. Use copper and use new every time because the proper hardness is important for sealing.

 

While copper washers will work they are not FCA Concours show correct and MAY cause point deduction if spotted by a sharp judge. The fiber washers which are correct OEM should be replaced occasionally. They originally are relativity soft when new and become compressed to seal on the first installation. They then dry out, shrink and harden over time and it is a bad idea to try to tighten the banjo bolts to try to stop the ensuing leaking. They are not exceptionally expensive. Try Pierce Manifolds Inc 408 842-6667 for replacements.

 

A light smear of Locktite 518 on each side of the washer. No more leaks. We fought leaks for years with both fiber, copper and aluminum washers. Discovered 518 about 20 years ago, and have not had a single leak since. Also works way better than teflon tape on threaded fittings.

 

Chuck, you might try first loosening the carb base nuts slightly; then loosen and re-tighten the banjos. In theory this sounds like it might help. Are these the three-hole or four-hole carbs? I don't think this idea would work with the three-hole carbs.

john

 

Chuck,

I do a combo of things from above from Dyke and John. When I have removed the carbs, i tighten the banjo bolt slightly to "align" the sealing surface with the fuel log. before (barely) tightening the carb mounting nuts. I don't think it helps much, as the carb really can't rotate much in its mounting holes. I also use NEW copper sealing rings each time. I get them in packages of 100 from Metric Multistandard. I put it all together, then turn on the fuel pump. If one is leaking, I will loosen the banjo bolt slightly, then re-tighten. Do not just tighten to get them to seal. Mine seals fine with this method. I may have to loosen/tighten several times. I will then put on another set of NEW washers if it doesn't seal on that carb.

I'm with Brian, I'm not a fan of the fiber washers. Fiber washers will eventually leak over time. Copper lasts a long time.

This also only works if nothing has been mucked up with the mating surfaces.

Hope this helps.

Bill

PM if you have more questions

 

To add to this:-
After changing the washers, after the first use and the engine has been hot then cooled, retighten bolts as they often leak at this point, after this you should have no problems.

 

Loctite 518 is a good option if you need to retain fibre washers for judges, but if your car is a "driver" I would change to bonded seals, commonly called "Dowty" seals in UK. They are fool proof and should work every time with no danger of over tightening.

 

Thanks to all for great advice, still am looking for the size washers i need to look for, to clarify the car has the comp carbs, the car was also nut and bolt restored 15 years ago and now has 2800 miles since..3-4 banjo bolts leak on startup 2 drip considerably..i put small rags under them so as to catch the gas until the engine heat expands the surface and most of the leaks stop..would like to purchase new washers before pulling apart, thanks for all the help,Chuck

 

Chuck

My copper sealing rings are 12 X 18 mm

Bill

 

I've been through this exercise a bunch of times with my cars, and here's what I've learned.

1) ALWAYS use new washers. 12mm ID

2) I prefer these slightly hard fiber washers, black (yeah, I know not concourse) that they sell for some oil pan drain plugs. ?? on some motorcycles. Bought a bag of 100 for cheap, I think on eBay. I've got some copper ones and some aluminum ones I'll give you.

3) I really like 518, but never convinced it helped that much here.

4) At least on my Daytonas, you cannot attach the fuel log/rail to the carb with banjo bolts UNTIL the carbs are bolted down. The three bolt design absolutely precludes this, and the carbs must be R&R in sequence, otherwise you can't get to the inside mounting bolt. Like the Declaration of Independence, this will be self evident.

5) Under no circumstances should you overtighten the banjo bolts, unless you want to helicoil the top of the carburetor. (Ask me how I know this!)

6) As noted, go back with your 16mm box end wrench after you've run the car for a time or two and check for leaks.

7) Hold off on replacing the air cleaner apparatus until you're sure it's nice and dry.

steve

 

Oh yeah....

5a) When I'm ready for the denouement, I use my battery quick disconnect to turn if off. Then I turn the ignition key to the "run" ("on") position to power up the fuel pump (which won't kick on quite yet).

5b) I use towels or such to cover the engine, or least parts I'm worried will get gasoline soaked if there's a big spray of fuel from a failed seal. Also cover the banjo bolts.

5c) Then, with your trusty 16mm box in hand, and eye on the connections, reconnect the battery and look for leaks and sprays at the connections. Occasionally, what looked like a sure victory (no leaks) can quickly turn to disappointment when you see or feel a slight drip.

5d) Now, you can dc the battery at will while you solve any minor leaks or sprays you have.

steve

 

Steve, awesome...thank you,Chuck

 

Hope I'm not drivin' ya' nuts (like I do my wife) but here are a couple of other tidbits.

1) While doing this job, I like to stuff some rags down in the "valley of death"...below the fuel rail/log and between the carbs, so I don't drop any parts (washers, etc) or tools down where they'll be gone until all the carbs are removed to retrieve them.

2) If you're doing all 12 of the washers (one on either side of the rail) at the same time, I like to wire brush my banjo bolts so they go on easily and I like to install them only partially at first, to give more flexibility to the log during the install. Then I tighten them.

3) If you're only replacing the washers on one banjo bolt, you don't need to take the whole log/rail apart, like you do on a 330. If the gods are smiling on you, you can usually slip a new washer between the rail and the one carb.

4) I prefer a box end (16mm) to a socket here and hold the box firmly against the bolt head with the thumb of my non-dominant hand, so I don't "round off" or damage the bolt. Pretty compulsive, but it works for me.

5) Since I'm not a professional (boy is that obvious), I'm usually in no particular hurry and so most jobs are pretty fun.

 

The weekly Sports Car Market email has a link to the Keno Brothers Auction in NYC, scheduled for mid-November. One of the cars offered is a N.A.R.T. 365 Daytona Comp car. In a preview video, it shows a weepy banjo bolt. Drip...drip...

Sure hope they take care of that!

 

I am a senior judge and judge both national events as well as Cavallino. I do not judge the Daytona class but the classes I do judge I cannot dream of deducting for that.

Original valve cover gaskets and carb base gaskets were beige, then gray, now many are green. We don't deduct for that and it is no different a situation.

 

At least it can be seen on a Daytona, even those with the air box. On the 3 carb cars many required a mirror and flashlight.

 

I should have read what I wrote prior to hitting submit. Steve is correct.

I loosen the carb top screws and slightly tighten the banjo bolts to align, then tighten down the carb top screws. I also make sure the floats don't touch the sides and hang up….overflowing into the carb.

Bill

 

Bill are these flat or 'crush ' washers and the loctite 518 mentioned is this only used on the fiber washers? Or also on the copper washers

 

Chuck,

I only use the copper "crush" washers….once I think Metric Multistandard calls them "sealing rings" part # 7603. If your banjo bolts and fuel rail are in good shape…i.e. flat and smooth on the sealing surfaces, you should be able to get it to seal.

I don't use any Loctite on the washers….but that is me. Once I get it sealed, it won't leak until I take them off. I also agree with Steve on the 6 sided box wrench and a thumb to keep from rounding any corners off the banjo bolts. PM sent.

Bill

 

Locktite 518 works on copper or fiber. We ALWAYS use it on copper oil drain plug washers.

 

Thanks Bill, will give me something to do over Christmas holiday. ..Chuck

 

"If your banjo bolts and fuel rail are in good shape…i.e. flat and smooth on the sealing surfaces, you should be able to get it to seal. "

A very good point and perhaps it should go without saying, but if the banjo faces aren't flat and free from defect then you will always struggle to get a decent seal. Fortunately they are simple to correct with a very fine file, or preferably a diamond stone. Obviously wash away swarf with copious amounts of fuel or other cleaner before reassembly.

 

"Original valve cover gaskets and carb base gaskets were beige, then gray, now many are green."

Since the original color was beige/gray and since correct color replacements are and have been available from various suppliers they are the show CORRECT OEM Color choice and any other color would not be. Further if one were somehow unable to procure them and since the materials for fabricating them in the right colors are easily obtainable and with the job of doing so not being rocket science, not doing so is simply a short cut or oversight and as I stated originally in my post and REPEAT- MAY- cause a deduction if a judge other than yourself happens to spot it and chooses to do so.

In the case of the fuel rail washers the correct OEM parts are easily found. If one wants to use any other choice it is up to that individual to decide to install the incorrect item and they certainly are free to do so. However that does not make the incorrect material/colored item OEM show correct.

I have eyewitness observed and have had several friends on more than one occasion during judging in both regional and national level FCA/FOC Concours events experience having had points deducted for the incorrectly marked, wrong color, size, type, hardware, minor mechanical components, decorative trim or other materials not only while competing for top class awards but also in determination of the awarding of platinum, gold and silver category awards. So when in doubt go correct if you have the resources to do so and desire to create the best opportunity for a win and the highest score possible.

"I am a senior judge and judge both national events as well as Cavallino. I do not judge the Daytona class but the classes I do judge I cannot dream of deducting for that."

You may not dream of deducting for it and you have the absolute right not to do so but do you have the authority to speak for every single class judge one might encounter at any FCA or FOA event?