Massini Report (275 GTB/4 09413)

That is a very good question.

First of all I must correct the given translation a little bit: "In sede" might be "at headquarter" but "in sede di" is "because" or "when", so modification is given as the reason for the engine change, not the location where it was done.

Second of all we must remember that Ferrari maintained a technical archive, not a historical one. This means that *IF* they would have tried five different engines, it would be likely that only the last engine change would be saved on documents. The simple reason for this is that only that engine change is related with the current status of the car and this also explains many other things in regard to how Classiche handles matters today. In many cases they don't really know what happened because there is no documentation.

1876/64 is a suspect number. For me it is quite unlikely that this engine existed in 12/66, but with existing documentation it is quite impossible to say anything certain. I find it unlikely that Ferrari would stock blocks for several months' production. With existing documentation we know that 1876/64 was taken out on 17.3.67 and 1456/64 was put in. We have no way of knowing what was going on with this car, but in some cases Ferrari would take original engine out to run tests using another engine. After testing original engine may or may not go back in.

To say for certain which engine was the original one in this case would be guessing and I leave that to those who are better at guessing. Classiche does likewise; that's why they confirm the last engine installed by factory as the one they will certify - that's what they have documentation on!

 

I am slightly out of my depth here but read the crossed out number in post 8 as 1376/64 which surely is more logical sequentially

 

Absolutely correct! 1376/64 then seems to have ended up in 09021...

 

+2
If it s great and real

 

Sorry to disagree.
1376/64 did NOT go into 09021.
09021 received 1374/64.
See scan of build sheet below (top right corner).

Marcel Massini
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Re Post #28:
1376/64 did go into 09713, another 275 GTB/4.
The actual stamping "1376/64" was done right over the type number 213 (visible underneath). "Normally" the four digit even internal number stamping is in between the "213" and the "100148".
See pix below.

Marcel Massini
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I did not say that the reason for the engine change was "the location". I said it was done at the factory headquarters.

Marcel Massini

 

I maintain that the correct translation is "engine replaced" (cambiato motore) "because of" (in sede di) "modification" (modificata).

Thanks for correcting my clerical error.

Best wishes, Kare

 

They do not have to take into consideration, in my 0,02 opinion.

An also no-one else.

I think that the "public" history of a new car begins with its delivery to the 1st owner.

Everything which happens at the factory before the delivery pertains the construction of the car.

 

+ 1 from Italy: REPLACED ENGINE DURING MODIFICATION.

It appears that the FOGLIO MONTAGGIO MOTORE has a canceled observation at the date of 28/12/66, where the word DELIBERATO (approved) is usually written when the engine is OK after the first running-in (PRIMO RODAGGIO).

So it appears that the engine 1876/64 needed some modifications after the first running-in and - at the end - it was replaced with another one (1456/64) as original engine for the #09413.

Only my 0,02 opinion.

 

This makes sense to me. +1

 

Well. Let me put it this way. Since Marcel keeps meticulous records and did so long before Ferrari paid attention to their heritage, I actually would give Marcel slight preference over Ferrari. Having said that I think we must also remember: Marcel is not a god. Even he makes mistakes from time to time. Full disclaimer: Marcel is a friend of mine.

 

I guess people want what they want, but it is amazing to me that anyone would value this car as less than any other for that reason.

But, when dirt-covered project cars... er, "barn finds"... are selling for as much or more than great drivers, who can say what makes sense?

 

Many want the immaculate conception not understanding where hand built automobile construction is involved it does not exist. It more closely resembles the manufacturing of sausage.

That does not even take into account those that read into Marcels report what they wanted to read into it and not what Marcel wrote as seems to be the case with the OP as stated in post 3.

As far as the paint on a GTB? My money is on Marcel.

P.S. Though I have met Marcel and we have mutual friends, he and I are not. I have to use Marcel Marceau's name to remember his when I refer to him. He is the one Ferrari experts consider an expert.

 

Rick:
Did you have a proper documentation book about 09413 at your auction?
Did that documentation folder/book include the factory build sheets for 09413?
When did you first personally see the factory build sheets for 09413? Yesterday? After I had posted them on fchat?
Did any of the "heavy hitters" (see above) personally check all that documentation?
Did you explain those "heavy hitters" the factory remarks regarding the engine?
Who said the car had an engine replacement AFTER the car was completed?
Who said the car had an engine replacement AFTER the car had actually left the factory?

Answers please. Thank you.

BTW: Rick Cole Auctions or Rick Cole privately did NOT obtain from me or from my company a "Massini Report" for 09413. Period.

Marcel Massini

 

Seems like these heavy hitters should have called Marcel up for clarification themselves, since it is clear from his response in this thread that he is forthcoming with corrections or clarifications to documents he has authored. If they didn't do that, then there is no use in being upset later. Homework, and all that. Blaming a no-sale solely on a discrepancy between reports is a bit too much, IMO. Seems like sour grapes. Then again, I can believe that the market has come to this point. I also hold the opinion that true enthusiasts who will drive the cars wouldn't worry too much about this kind of thing, but then it all becomes a digression...

 

"Per the original build" (what?). You mean "per the original build SHEETS"? Or what?

Rick, are you aware that the so-called "factory build sheets" (Foglio di Montaggio) do NOT mention the original colors?
The original colors are listed on a totally different document which has zero to do with the build sheets.
Somebody mixing up various documents?

Back in those days (50s and 60s) there were usually at least three different factory documents (besides order forms, order confirmations, correspondence and letters, delivery notes and invoices and customs documents):

Factory Build Sheet (Foglio di Montaggio).
Factory Equipment Sheet (Foglio Allestimenti).
Factory Commercial Sheet (Foglio Commerciale).

Marcel Massini

 

more parsing...

there is nothing that has been presented that an engine was physically installed in the chassis or a build completed to be presented for release to ship... there is the designation of an engine that was destined / assigned to a particular build and later substituted as part of inventory control of parts to complete a build ... the argument seems more about internal mechanizations to complete a build... while the car as presented to ship remains unchallenged...

this is obsessing over too much information, if not, then maybe we need to check the toilet paper inventory and the lunch menu during the build

 

Completely agree. You gotta be REALLY paranoid if you walk away from a great car because of this.

 

Are the specifications for this motor 'normal' during the 1966 period? The 'replacement' motor implies a fault. However could it be that the motor specification like camshafts, pistons or other specification was modified at the request of this particular customer as a running change during the build of the car?

 

Chinetti sold 09413 to Bob Peak, artist and designer in CT. See also article in "Car & Driver" of October 1967.

Marcel Massini

 

"...what difference does it make..." H.Clinton
:=)

the car was not presented to ship... until a car is presented to ship, it only represents an inventory of allocated parts, subject to possible change or substitution