Have they left yet?
Bernie has stated that it's all sorted and that Red Bull will be racing next year, meanwhile Christian Horner has stated that he'd like Bernie to tell him exactly what has been sorted because he's not heard anything yet and expects it could take 2~3 more weeks before they know for certain what's happening. Interestingly, he also told the BBC earlier that it would be incredibly difficult to go back to Renault now for an engine supply, and right now he has just stated: "it would be almost impossible to go back with Renault now but in F1 you can never completely rule anything out!" Horner also said that there is no chance of only one of the two "Red Bull" teams remaining in F1. He stated that if they pull out of F1 then it will be both teams. Toto Wolff has stated that there is no chance of Mercedes supplying any engines to Red Bull now, not even a 2015 spec engine so that door is closed. So now it's looking as though they're either going to have to beg Renault to take them back or beg Ferrari for 2015 engines just to take part in 2016! The problem with the Ferrari option though is that Ferrari has already stated they would only supply Torro Rosso and cannot supply both teams. Basically it's not looking good right now for the Red Bull teams, but as I've stated elsewhere: Whose fault is that?
Based on what Christian Horner was saying today on the BBC, for that to be true Red Bull must also have an engine deal in place. Horner specifically stated that Dietrich Mateschitz has said that he will not do a deal whereby only one team is racing next year. He said either both teams would be racing or both teams would leave F1 and that it was as simple as that.
Long term, I think it would be best for F1 if RBR and TR pulled out. Otherwise, FOM, FIA and everybody else will just let it slide. It needs to be brought home to them that their business if screwed up and requires a significant fix. BTW, I like both RBR and TR and I think they have been very good for F1. Especially TR and its grooming of young drivers. So, this is not an "I hate Red Bull" comment.
Renault are contractually obliged for a 2016 supply so they will not be able to change the spec - unfortunately IMO It's all been a shakedown by RBR to see what best option they can drum up. But what sheer stupidity in thinking they could get a top spec engine and then compete with the very same suppliers.
+1. Red Bull paid for a product and didnt receive what they felt was acceptable, and Renault did not appear to have any urgency. In fact the engine is worse than last years. This episode is a large symptom of a failing sport not one that is growing. F1 is chaotic and not coherent overall. Its the pinnacle of what? Ego and not much else. At this point the fans appear to be an afterthought. As I said before if it fails and/or I lose interest the world will clearly be turning and there is alot in life to do outside of being an F1 fan lol!
The fact still remains though that Red Bull have handled this whole situation incredibly badly and with a lot of arrogance by publicly criticising Renault and then terminating their contract prior to finding a replacement engine supplier, assuming that Mercedes would be eager to supply them engines. Whilst this situation may highlight a problem with F1 today, it also highlights the problem with being a manufacturer who relies on other companies for major parts! - McLaren should take careful note because if Honda were to bail on them then they'd be in the exact same position! Somewhere in Heaven, Enzo Ferrari has got a wry smile on his face!
Aye, and I strongly suspect the the issue with Renault goes beyond not havving a WCC winning motor in 2014, but the root of RBR's issue, goes to Renault pushing for this new quieter boring sounding engine when it came time to write the rule book. They dropped Ferrari from RBR without this hubbub, there must be more there than the haters see.
Given RBR have a bit of money behind them why don't they do what many others have successfully done before and trot down the road to Ilmor and have them put together an engine - they have V6 experience with the Indy motor - too late for '16 but '17?? John
Long term, RB need a factory engine deal of their own. Customer engines will not cut it for an outfit that wants to win championships. What RB seem unable to realise right now, is that they have blown any chance of that for 2016 and need to accept that beggars can't be choosers. They are lucky to be offered a 2015 engine for next year and should take it. Then make proper plans with a viable engine manufacturer for 2017. Their mismanagement of this situation is spectacular to behold. In years to come, it will be a case study at every business school...
You missed my point: this is an opportunity for Red Bull to raise a middle finger to the factories. Ilmor have one of the better histories as an engine supplier (3 x WCC, 5 x WDC). Sure a lot stayed when Mercedes took it over completely but Mario still has plenty of smart guys on board. I'm saying throw some coin at it and see what happens - couldn't be worse than staying with Renault.. John
And how closely related is an Indy V6 to an F1 V6 with hybrid technology? - My monies on them being nothing alike whatsoever! Added to that, the cost of developing the hybrid technology for an F1 engine would put Ilmor at risk of going out of business! - It really is that expensive and that complex!
This isn't engine building anymore...would that it were. These Power Units are such complex systems that this is a completely different technology than it was 10 years ago. When the FIA decided to go this direction they effectively eliminated guys like Ilmor and Cosworth. And the drastic, revolutionary rather than evolutionary, change opened the door for some to get it really right and others to get it really wrong. The likelihood of failure is so high for a company like Imlor, that they would be crazy to get into F1 under these rules. For goodness sake, even Honda with their resources and experience with hybrid power are struggling and Renault is still years away from catching Mercedes, if they ever could. It is the move to Power Units that has precipitated ALL of the turmoil in F1. RBR and Renault may have handled it badly, but they didn't start it.
+1. The investment required now is better off employed in other ways. Get rid of these PU's please. Make 2 liter V6 or 8 and park a nice basic hybrid unit on it. I could care less how much energy they recover. Id like better racing with more teams and makes. The over complicated systems now need to be discarded. Please or let the sport just die. Life goes on and easily so. Simplify the cars and force drivers to deal with them. Cut the excess communication and get on with it.
^^^ Precisely. These engines are so complex that the engine builders are priced out and even with all the money in the world, it is way too late for any engine manufacturer to create a 2016 PU from scratch. RB have no choice. They must accept whatever they are given for 2016 and plan NOW for a better 2017 solution.
Agree with that, but they can't win as a customer engine team. There is no alternative... A better option would be to go customer engine until a new engine formula is determined and then strike an exclusive deal with someone.
Their better 2017 solution died the death when VW got caught cheating the emissions test! The problem for Red Bull is that when they were dominating F1 and winning every weekend they enjoyed rubbing their rivals faces in it, making statements along the lines of: "It's not our fault if our rivals can't keep up!" and such like, and now they need help form those same rivals, they're playing the price for being so arrogant. Today, Red Bull's rivals have them by the short and curlies and they know it! If only they'd noted the words of Wilson Mizner: "Be nice to people on your way up because you'll meet the same people on your way down". A little more humility when they were winning week in - week out would have paid great dividends today I suspect!
and whats the big deal if they only can get a 2015 ferrari motor???? Its leagues beyond what a 2016 renault could/would be. The're already ahead of the game. Man up Red bull! maybe they should trade in their wings for balls Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post of the thread, right there! "Red Balls" - Not sure it works in the marketing dept though. Cheers, Ian
If Red Bull is reading the posts about how "boring" these new powerplants are, how they do not sound as good, and they know Renault pushed for this format, then I see a bigger issue that Red Bull has with Renault rather than just performance. If people thought these new F1 was exciting, Red Bull would probably not of acted as they have. Instead, they are emphasizing that the direction F1 took is not where it should be. If F1 refuses to move in an exciting direction, there is no point for them to be there. Red Bull did not act this way with Ferrari engine failures race after race. This means its a deeper issue than simply the position on the grid they are fighting for. Red Bull, is fighting to get F1 something we want to watch. It will be very sad if they go.
Red Bull should have accepted 2015 Ferrari or 2015 Mercedes engines as a stop gap measure, until a better opportunity appears in a few years time. Llive to fight another day", as they say ... Instead, Mateschitz prefers to throw a theatrical tantrum and threatens to leave. I wish he does!
+1 the RedBull situation should inspire change that is needed. Haas must be wondering why he bothered with this soap opera of a sport lol! Losing a winning team is NOT a good thing for F1.
