This is another reason why non-racing Ferraris should have manual gearboxes.

Oh, I have plenty of advantage over those in a third world country, but that's not what this discussion is about. It's specifically about those that can afford Ferraris.

I will also point out that hundreds of thousands of people were born into better circumstances than I was and have failed to do anything with that advantage. It still all comes down to the individual.

 

I expect a new thread soon where somebody implies that a Fcar without a manual box is not a Fcar, but a redesigned Fiat.

 

Paul, I've read this fascinating study in psychology and found it interesting that very few other than you really noticed this most serious flaw in Sean's diatribe:

"Ferrari itself says they ahve made these cars driveable by "gnetlemen" drivers or posuers which is the majority of its clientale." [sic]

As you commented, this is pure rubbish. It applies, if at all, to new Ferrari buyers. But Ferrari road car VIN's are now above 200,000. The overwhelming number of Ferrari owners are ordinary hard-working guys and gals who love cars in general and Ferraris in particular, who know they are unlikely ever to be able to afford to buy a new Ferrari but who have worked hard and are sufficiently comfortable financially to permit themselves the luxury of realizing their dreams and having a Ferrari. I'm among them, never bought a new Ferrari and have owned 7 1/2 'pre-owned' Ferraris and loved every one.

As to manual vs. paddles, to each his own. When I was a young guy I raced a manual Triumph and a manual Porsche. So what? I loved driving my manual 412GT and F355 hard and well and now love driving my 575M F1 and Maserati Spyder cambiocorsa ditto.

 

Imagine how much happier you would be if you could shed that chip on your shoulder. No need to portray this false self of extreme arrogance and infallability.

Any successful person that really thinks they did everything all by themselves does not understand how they got where they are. And this in itself is too bad, for they will not be able to mentor and do the same for others that was given to them.

 

Yes clearly he'd be happier if he just came to realize he didn't build that.

 

Well actually they ARE all technically Fiats since 1969 or so (never can remember the actual year they got controlling interest). I've been meaning for years to get a sticker for my 308 that says "all my other cars are FIATs too!"

 

Xactly

Drive, confidence a wilingness to risk your future or not take the safe secure option, these more than intelligence or education are the keys to sucess.

 

Back to the stick story.

As its cold and crispy out, spent the day in the BBI. The whole shiftign thing on the road just adds tot he totality of the experience. Looking ahead, thinking of the gear you will need and use, based on road conditions traffic and how fast you want to drift on by all the camry/minivan/suv slugs.

Or selecting the right gear for the right corner getting it all in sync as you enter and come blasting out.

Now I am not talkign 100% pace. But if you are running a 70-90% pace between the "useability" of the newer cars and the computer doing the shifting, well a newer car in these conditions car is about as engaging as any other civillian car.

Alternatively 70-90% pace means speeds from 65 to 130, realisticaly most people are not going that speed or faster on usa roads. An older stick car in these condtions is totaly engaging and absorbing in way moderns are not.

So yes on track a paddle is quicker, and yes a paddle works great in traffic. But for a sunday drive on real roads, a modern paddle car, might as well be in lexus.

Its all about connection tot he machine. Between a manual sterring and moving that wand feelign the gears, the driver havign to be the key part of the equation, that to me is what makes the whole experience. Somethign special about a ferrari stick too, the way the long lever is bent so the ball fits right where your arm/hand is, thats part of the jewlery that makes a ferrari special.

Now I am sure a paddle car at full tilt takes epic skill and engages the mind in warp drive. But that aint gonna happen on the road, and I have hardley ever seen a modern ferrari going full tilt on track.

Somethign about having to work for your sucess makes it satisfying, something about having to work for your speed makes it so much more.

 

I was refering to new buyers. The rest of us are left with the used cars such as they were bought by the new car buyers, used ferraris with a stick fetch a premium, different buyer base. I think you need to look at what the op had to say, and any serious study of new ferrari owners will bear this out.

What is an interesting psych study is the defesiveness of paddle owners. On one had DCT has won there are no new manual F-cars for sale. On the other hand paddle owners need to resort to insults and slurs to defend themselvs, which implies an insecurity, just sayin.

Its also interesting that while ferrari offers no stick, half the owner here would aparently prefer one, and fchat seems to be an enthusiast place..

Now moving on to porche, who have figured it out. After the sucess of the GT4 and the cries of foul by the faithful they are now building a 911R, which is basicaly a manual GT3 sans wings and 4ws. It is already totaly unobtanium between the rumor and before any anouncement apaprently all are allocated/sold.

I am willing to bet that there is still a core of ferrari enthusiast driver owners, that if ferrari announced a great properly enginered stick car it would be sold out too. Probably going to happen too. In 1 year porche has sold 3k extra high end high margin cars by offering the right combination of great motor and suspension with a stick. Not a lesser car with pedestrian motor and suspension that happens to have a stick option, but pukka analog machines with a great motor(perhaps here the GT4 did not go all the way) and suspension. Yes they are "slower" in fan mags but they are undoubtably better drivers cars, even if they are slower than one lap wonders. We will see the same thing from ferrari in due course, how else is Sergio going to get to 10k units, cause the Chinese are not buying.

 

I love my 3 pedal Fcar so I'm very much in favor of 3 pedal cars. However your logic seems flawed.
Your thesis thus far:

- New Ferraris are bought by poseurs.
- Poseurs can't properly operate 3 pedal cars.
- If Ferrari were to build a 3 pedal car, it would sell out.

If only poseurs can afford new Ferraris and enthusiasts are left with the second hand market, who would be buying these 3 pedal cars? Surely only poseurs can afford a new Ferrari and I doubt Ferrari would sell a low priced machine to satisfy the enthusiasts.

Again, I'd love nothing more than the ability to be able to order a new Ferrari with 3 pedals but I doubt that will ever happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

If tundraphile would subscribe he could join in all the similar discussions about politics in the dedicated forum section too instead of making the jabs here.

 

This is a weird thread.
Somehow I get offended by OP's initial post.
So who am I, owning and enjoying a F1 geared car?
A poseur? An ignorasmus?
A person without any driving skills?
All of the above maybe!

Or simply just a guy that enjoys the feel, noise and roadhandling of a well designed, 200+ MPH car, even if the maximum legal limit is 50 MPH?

 

The great thing about being a car enthusiast is you can have the driving experience you want. If you like older cars that you can service yourself, the ones that are bolted and riveted together, the ones that connect you through mechanical systems with no electronic assist, well they still exist. Drivers that want this experience of buy the old cars. Now if you want a new car with a warranty, that has power everything, starts every time, even in the dead of winter, can go down a snowy road with the aid of traction control with a place to put your Starbucks coffee, a new car is the only option. A new car is not going to give that same no sound deadening, downdraft carb raw experience of an old car in any way. Tech moves on as do a lot of buyers. Manual buyers just weren't buying these new cars in numbers to justify keeping a manual as an option, and as a result, manuals are being dropped buy manufactures. A manual transmission just does not make sense in these new tech laden vehicles.

 

Agreed. To each their own and who cares what others might think or say. If I had more funds I'd have a 275GTB, 250 LM, and a 458 Speciale in my garage alongside my 360. Throw in an F50, 599 SAA, FF, CS, 550 Barchetta and a LaF. I love them all.



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I never said only poseurs can afford new ferraris, but they certainly are the predominant buyer, and at this point many serious people shop elsewhere,

My thesis is this.

(1)Enough poseurs etc buy ferraris now that this is the predominant image of who owns a ferrari. That these people buy ferraris as statements to themselvs and others. That ferrari has marketed tot his crowd and built products to suit. This has been fantasticaly sucessful from a sales and profit perspective.

(2) That ferrari can and should also offer products and sales strategies that appeal to its abandoned core enthusiasts as this will garner the extra sales they are looking for, and B give the "brand" some much needed street cred.

Its not an either or, and poseurs will always be the majority.


In More detail
(1)90% or some really significant percentage of new ferrari owners are poseurs of some form or another, rather than DRIVERS. The client motivation is true for any high end luxury "brand" People buy badges and the status image that confers. Such has been the brand management and sales sucess under Luca that ferrari has sold all the cars it wanted, maintained limited prod and added the extra profit not with more cars but with hefty options(profit) to this crowd.

Practicaly speakign that has meant that ferrari has had no need to offer a stick, not for demand, nor for the image or use of its primary customer base. Additionaly in these regulated times significant efforts are required to certify a stick. Going even further, untill the new turbo motors the last ferrari v8s 430 and 458 power characteristics would have been ill suited to a stick. Since the ferrari schtick is ersatz F1 manuals didnt even fit the image the company wanted to project.

The downside of ferraris strategy is that there are only so many poseurs to go around, and fashionistas are fickle and move on to other trinkets eventualy for one reason or another. For example in China we see that displays of wealth which ferrari so aptly symbolises are now frowned upon.. Additionaly the "brand" is being stigmatised by the image of the majority of their current new car clientale. Hence the OP.

2. In pursuing the above strategy ferrari saved itself economicaly and in fact became hugely profitable by bringing in a lot more sales than an enthusiast base would have supported. However ferrari needs more sales now and the current methodology is tapped out, potentialy even undermining long term health. Performance Car brands also need "real" street cred.

The core enthisiast base is a strong and durable one, and ferrari would do well to service it. Porche who are the master marketeers have now figured out that just as race and road cars separated into different gene lines after the 60s, we are now at another seperation into two lines iun road going sportscars. One line is the pure massive application of best tech for max objective eprformance in a "useable" package. Run it all the way out to its natural conclusion and its all electric computer driven. The other gene line is heavy on experience and drivign experience, lets call that the classic line, it gives up ultimate possible performance for the magical experience, it even gives up comforts in terms of sound deadening etc to get light. One car cant do both, but one platform can.

Both lines can be based on a common platform, cayman and 991, but yeild remakably different products in terms of experience Cayman/GT4 991Gt3/991R(commign soon)

Fearrari road cars were always about the experience, from the design to sound etc, its a legitamate part of the DNA just as ersatz F1 is..

When ferrari comes out with a line that emulates in a modern idiom all that made the classics so great, they will pick up more sales. Lets call these anolog cars.

Based on posts here and elsewhere it seems 50% of buyers would like such a machine.

Its the same reason that BMW offers M2 and M4 still with stick, even though the rest is bland because one car cant be two things, even if one platform is. or put another way it takes a lot more than just offering a stick to get that anolog experience.

Sticks are now a experience luxury, they are no longer applicable to an econo car, DCT is better for that, and if its nth degree extreme performance DCT is better. But if its interactive experience par excellence you want then a manual is probably part of the equation, along with a more live feel to the whole car, based on suspesion steering etc.

So I woudl say if Ferrari offered something like a 488 with a classic stick ie the big chrome wand, A different steerign gear, ie more like manual rack, and it was simpler in terms of doodads, lightened less luxurious like CS, properly enginered for the stick application there would be a steady sale of an additional 1k cars per year. The client base for such a machine is currently not being served by ferrari.

That a cali stick didnt sell makes sense, its the weak chick ferrari. The 599 stick, even the people who own them say its an unhappy marriage. Putting a stick as an afterthought on car a 458 as it exists just with a stick, would be crappy. It has to be a whole cohesive product.

Another product is to take the 4c tub, put real suspension on it as befits a ferrari, ie wishbones instead of struts. Use the masser or alfa Ttv6, offer it with a stick(the alfa Giuleta is comming with stick so the powertrain exists) and give it all some great pinin styling. Call it a Dino if you want, and price it below 200k.

I am trying to think of anybody I know who wouldnt want such a car.

And then market all the other cars you want to the poseur crowd, + the enthusiasts who value nth degree performance uber alles, and the people who want comfort and conveninec..

If Ferrari wants 10K sales thats the way to get there, add derivations that appeal to the "entusiast" core of existing platforms. Not only would such products not dilute the brand they would enhance it with real cred amongst those who drive and track.

Yes the poseurs wouldnt buy any of these raw ferraris, but why not serve two or three client bases with derivations of existing platforms. Currently if you want the more classic style experince you are told to buy an old ferrari(and look at those prices spike). Well some of us can afford new and would prefer to buy new.

My guess is ferrari is seeing the sucess of the porche "classic" line and figuring out how to do the same thing themselvs.

Personaly I dont care how many poseurs buy paddle ferraris in red with tan leather, it pays the bills. What I want is ferrari to respect its heritage and core enthusiast group, and offer a modern car, with the attributes that make a fantastic experiential road car.

As much as people laud DCT, as fast and convenient as it is, in the opnion of many too much gets lost in the translation for the recreational driver, same with eps.

As porche has proven with the GT4 build the right machine and they will come. Its a good buisness case.

 

I thought it is the opposite. Can you cite a specific example or examples of paddle owners resorting to insults and slurs? (I am not challenging, I am really just asking).

 

Just read this thread, or the one on manuals.

On this page my views were termed "rubbish"

 

I have been subscribed before and find I post and come here in spurts. A year or so ago when I realized that my subscription had run out a month earlier I decided it didn't really interest me in upping again. Except for the movie thread in OT and maybe some football or MotoGP, I actually find I post very little on F-chat these days. The overall flavor of the place has changed over the years, and perhaps I have changed too.

As for "jab" I think you have either misunderstood my intention or understand completely and would like this subject to not be discussed if it makes others uncomfortable.

No politics or religion were implied, if offering a counterpoint to someone's grandiosity is no longer tolerated then this forum has devolved. Like so many other interent boards, possibly headed for a 50 active member circle jerk where people endlessly debate the proper color seat sticthing Enzo would have approved for one of his "real" Ferraris.

So to bring it back to the topic of the thread. A proper manual is a mechanical device. You push the clutch, you move the lever and hear the clack-clack as the gears change. There is a tactile pleasure in using it not unlike playing a quality piano. Not sure what the pleasure is in using the paddles, more like playing a cheap keyboard.

Maybe if they could engineer the paddles to have a "mechanical" feel, like as you squeeze the paddle you feel the pump disengage the clutch and fire into the next gear, people would enjoy similar sensations.

 

There isn't any. Reading comprehension and manuals are both rare these days.

 

I have read this thread. Let me make it clear that I am not picking up a fight or what with you. You are a fellow owner, I respect you (even though I don't know you), and certainly entitled to your opinion. Your view was termed "rubbish" bec IMHO the poster simply disagreed with your comment. I don't think he was defensive or resorting to insult or slurs.

On this thread, here are a few of your comments:
"Ferrari has been an increasingly bogus brand for years."
"Yep drive aferrari and you are not a sportscar conniseur/hobbyist but you are keeping up with every lame ass stockbroker and kardashian."
"Fortunatly even though it has flappy paddles an aventador is also beyond the skill level of the average ferrari driver clown."
"I dont hate the Marque, but certainly hate what it has come to represent, a fashioista trinket for clowns who cant drive but like to pretend they are racers."
"Time was ferrari was a serious driving machine. Now they are great cars, possibly in some ways better than they ever were, and attract posuers like **** attracts flies."
"Back to sour grapes, yes its sad that untill the recent dowturn you couldnt buy a new ferrari unless you gave the dealer some type of blow job, so most serious poeple went elsewhere, while poseurs stockbroker putzs and fashionista flocked in."


These sound more like insults and slurs than the "rubbish" comment made. You have a lot of resentment. Why? Bec Ferrari doesn't make manual cars anymore?
Btw, I love my f1 360. But I don't need to be negative with manual cars. I am a lifelong manual driver.

Best,
Ron

 

A positively fascinating thread.

 

I am really old. I had to google "Tyga."

 

You're old? I had to Ask Jeeves what google meant.

And no. Jeeves didn't know what a Tyga was either.

 

I take your point. But its possible to take coments as sound bites out of context as the news media does time and again. My comments are part of an ongoing conversation larger dialogue and in the context of response to things written by others. They are also illustrating the genesis of views as expressed by of those who may agree with the op.

You can also look at the thread "so no one wants a manual" to see the opposite views.

The general coment to people who like manuals is that they might also prefer hand cranks windup windows etc, ie we are luddites. The resposne as we see above from others is that a manual is a tactiile integrated part of the driving experience. Paddles for all their virtues also have attracted a client base which is very different and this client base(probably not on fchat) is probably the majority of new fcar buyers and projects an image of the "brand" which is quite different to that of an enthusiast, be they paddle or manual owner.

If you and othrs think I go to far in my views fine. But at least I give credence to the other views, I think I clearly state the advantges of paddles and where they work better, all I state is the cars the experiencve and the brand would be better off offerign cars that can cater to both or multiple client bases. Well paddles are probably 3 client bases, so just cause you like or are satisfied with a paddle does not mean you are a poseur, but it also means that ferrari can and does attract a large majority of its customers from poseur ranks, who buy the car as a statement, a trinket a fasion acessory etc and are able to do so because paddles are easy and undemanding(in general driving conditions as opposed to track).

As to my coments about ferrari becoming an increasingly bogus brand(as seperate from the product itself). That is the theme of this thread and the topic the op sought to illustrate. One can debate the extent, but its a fact. I imagine to the extent some people tie up some of their their sense of sucess or self worth in the fact of owning a ferrari they will find negative coments about the "brand" personaly offensive. To which I say, these are cars not our chilldren.

I find no personal meaning in my life in the fact of my owning a ferrari, I dont think it impresses others or should. I do find tremendous pleasure and satisfaction in the experience of driving operating taking care of etc the car. These experience are imo filled with things that are unique to a ferrari, be it the styling sound and feel etc.

In general and imo while the styling is making a comeback the other attributes that I think make ferrari so special are being blanded out and lost. This is a partialy a function of time/tech, and very much a function of the customer base ferrari is seeking, a custoim,er they have followed to the exclusion of others.

I know of my car friends, none really takes owning a ferrari seriously. Of those that did, they loved the cs which was a paddle but found from the 430 the feel was to quote "japanese".

From my personal experience when shopping for a new car, and being in the position to buy a new ferrari I thought the 458 would be it and post recession its was a mere 6 motyh wait. The drive to me at anything under 9/10ths was underwhelming, and I thought the exhaust noise was overdone once the baffles opened. I spent my money elsewhere which was sad to me as a lifelong fan of what the marque offered experientialy for driving.

I used the aventador example because even though it is a paddle car, its still raw and exciting in a way modern ferraris(with few exceptions) seem to lack.

Apart from the product itself, the manner in which ferrari dealers have behaved is to me a sign of disrespect for customers, the Goldman term muppett comes to mind. The game of selling cars to flippers who sell back 6 months later etc.

Its no wonder to me that ferrari created a market openign for Mclaren, audi(r8) Mercedes and various higher end porche. They all offer pieces of ferrari experience to those who are more serious about driving than badge, even though ferrari used to own this entire market.

While Luca did great things creating a modern luxury "brand" there was a cost too. Imo Sergio may explore market niche and one of these will be the offering of more viceral and direct cars, manuals may be part of the equation or not, there is more to than just a transmission. I dont think thats bad, yes it may exclude people from that model who prefer ease and comfort. What those who like what I seem to like in a car or ferrari is not the past, rubbish, silly etc, its just an alternate present or future.

Both can coexist sucessfully.

I would love to see ferraris being driven fast and responsibly, being tracked again.

Maybe a time will come a time when you say you own a ferrari car people will ask which one, and then nod their heads sagely.

I do appreciate the polite manner in which you pointed out my excess, than you.

Sean