road atl de fatality

One can always point out the bad because there will always be some of it every where and in anything that involves the public, but there is also lots of good in DE track days, tracking and racing.

 

Holy smokes! We use helmet-to-helmet intercoms when instructing. I don't want my student looking at my hands out of his peripheral... I want eyes forward and on the track. I had a 'clown' ONCE and I ended his session immediately.

I'll be instructing at an hpde at Road America in 2 weeks and as always, prepping for and looking forward to it.

 

agreed
i have had nothing but GOOD experiences at local san diego porsche club initiated DEs and TTs.
no experience with wheel-2-wheel "racing"
cheers


craig

 

Terrifying stuff right there.

At our events at Mosport there is absolutely no passing anywhere near a corner. Just too dangerous when you have inexperienced drivers on course. Only passing allowed is on the straights with a signal. Also all drivers must go with an instructor for the first session and be signed off to go alone regardless of experience.

 

WOW the best part was after the pass and all the cussing and name calling "I am the man" posturing, the white Porsche passes him. Would not want to be on a track with someone like that. Appears I could be a driving instructor pointy left and pointy right, piece of cake.

 

This was previously on jalopnik, but they pulled the video from youtube. If you watch/listen-to the throttle, the only reason the guy didn't spin repeatedly is because of the traction control. Really scary stuff. The driver is an idiot, but the instructor is even worse. I think my comments on youtube were: "driver should be banned; instructor should be shot".

 

Everyone needs to have it drummed into their head that this isn't a video game and the mere nature of the beast is inherently dangerous. Everything in life has risk.

If the group and instructors stress safety as job 1, that attitude will trickle down to the students. Over the years I have had to bring in any number of students because they weren't following common sense instructions.... and more than anything, they aerating ME at risk!

In 20+ years of DE instructing, I have fortunately never seen any incidents of note. I am sure the group's attitude that I have worked with have been safety/fun oriented. DE and tracking is one of the last bastions of personal responsibility and needs to stay that way.

 

I've done DE events and have instructed with Porsche Club and other clubs for many years and Road Atlanta is my home track.

The bottom line is that track driving inherently has some risks. Those risks can be mitigated but not eliminated entirely.

Common sense will minimize the dangers of on track driving, but in life there are those who have more sense than others, thereby altering the chances of an incident.

Bottom line is: drive within your own limits and use good judgement; if you instruct keep your student under control as he learns to gradually and safely build speed. Use proper safety equipment - which in fast run groups probably includes fire suppression as well as a Hans device/safety cage.

Best...

 

You guys do know that the Vette guy was removed by the organizer once they realized how he was driving. And you do also know that that "instructor" was not an instructor at all but his friend who was sort of trying to show him around the track. So yes while the vette guy was not driving acceptably it was no instructor's fault and the organizer took action against the driver.

 

Driver ability > vehicle limits = good fun

Vehicle limits > driver ability = dangerous

We had a similar incident at Roebling Road a few years ago when an instructor was killed by a student who ran off the end of the straight in a high hp car.

We all fear getting paired with the 20 something punk driving a 500+ hp Mustang with lots of stickers and stock brakes and fluid. Instructors should not feel hesitant to bring an out-of-control student in for a talk and event leadership should seriously consider removing some drivers that tend to ruin a great event by putting themselves and others in danger.

We also need more legitimate tech on vehicles at some events. Kicking tires and checking for loose items isn't cutting it.

Just my $0.02

 

Driver ability is dynamic.

Vehicle limits are static.

Agreed on more detailed and rigorous tech inspection.

 

This is 2015. There should be no instructors "in-car." The tools for an instructor can now be portable and make learning quantifiable for less than the cost of a harness and right seat. The student can now learn and have a 2 way discussion with their Pro in a calm environment instead of under stress while driving.

 

There is absolutely zero data to back up that supposition. Also, the game is teamwork. Ultimately track control is in the hands of corner workers. They can clear a track of any idiot and make their full weight felt more than the screaming of any one instructor. They are responsible for keeping "everybody" safe.

 

No we do not know.
Very good to hear that he was removed.

Agreed.
ALL P car events that I attend have a fairly rigorous tech inspection. i know because i help with Tech and have "black flagged" cars prior to running if they have unsafe mechanicals or safety equipment.

??????????
More details on this path please.

 

Sean Edwards died 2013, 2014 an instructor got a wooden post enema but survived, and also last year another instructor died at summit point as car veered off into the trees. Those are just the tragedies that made the few forums I follow. The risk to instructors is not worth the driver's reward. When we lacked technology a guy in the right seat made sense. A co-pilot in a plane is a different controlled environment. Racing a car is an attempt to learn to successfully push one's boundary. We have the inexpensive tools today to make right seat instruction not only obsolete but less effective. Just like the Pros were the first to adopt HANS they are the first to embrace data. Today, data is everything.

 

You need an ego in a vette to follow data and instruction, and that is no more graunbteed than listening to an instructor..

IMO no one should be allowed to track past begiiner untill they have taken a 2 day racing school.

Course thats not good for buisness, but it would make things infinitey safer.

I juts see too much ego driven stupid stuff, and/or plain ignorance.

At least by the time you get to an advanced run group there has been a weeding process, but even still, some people may be fast but dont know the basics.

Personaly I learn the most from following someone who really really knows what they are doing, and usualy that person is in something like a spec miata.

 

That is just silly. SCCA and others have been at this game for 60 years in SCCA's case. Tens of thousands have been taught to varying degree all without death. People die fishing! If you want safe there is iracing until you need carpal tunnel surgery I guess..

 

Not talking about SCCA, more like the average De event.

 

Agreed...

 

I don't think you can just use telemetry and flags for beginners with little experience. I've seen beginners miss black flag after black flag...miss the checkered and have to be run down by instructors, etc. There is just a massive amount going on for new drivers coupled with all the information and new adrenaline. Talking DE's here of course. I think maybe you have to add lead-follow in there to get people accustomed to how to position the car, etc. I would think you would also want some form of in-car video to check things like hand position, eyes, shifting technique, etc that may not be obvious from just looking at data.

I think there is also a fundamental misunderstanding about the mentality of a lot of people that do DEs. A lot of people that do DEs are not actually interested in learning; they are interested in proving how fast their car is or how awesome they believe themselves to be naturally. That makes up a large amount of the participants in group 1 and 2 in my experience. People like that are not going to learn well from telemetry IMHO.

I personally like the Skip Barber model that they use at their racing school, where they put instructors in the corners and when you get back from a session, you go and hear specific feedback at about specific points on the track. They also stop-box the session early so you can get real time feedback if needed. But I had a bit of DE experience with some decent instructors before I even got into that, had goals for myself, and was working in iracing. So it's hard to say how it might work out for a novice. Plus those are all the same cars, so it gets more complicated with people in their own cars of various specs.

Regarding SCCA, and speaking to some of the instructors at my local track, they actually put on one of the worst run DE events the guys had seen. They said it was confusing and dangerous. One instructor said he would never do it again. This is the "track night in America" thing they started. I'm sure there are a lot of good SCCA events, but the formula is obviously not perfect. I hear good things about Chin Motorsports, but have not done one of their DEs.

It's a tough problem. The more I get into racing, the more I could see myself instructing some day; but I will never do so from the right seat - too much to lose.

 

+1000