F1 trans cars listed as "manuals"

sigh...

 

The problem is that all the discussions here and elsewhere are using either-or terminology from 50 years ago to categorize new technology.

It's like debating whether your iPhone is a "telephone" or a "fax". The answer is "yes", but also that it's better than either, and that applies to DCT gearboxes here.

If you pry the "auto" button off with a screwdriver and throw it in a drawer, then you will have a manual gearbox.

(And a damaged car, but still...)

 

But, just because you have new technology.. that doesn't mean that common sense definitions don't apply. Because you have a man on top of a steamshovel.. is he doing manual labor? Or is that a guy moving dirt with a shovel and his muscles? technically a guy is moving a lever with his hands. Or, a finger typing on a key that writes the code that instructs the machine right?

Typical american argument bent to all high heaven with no common sense whatsoever. "Officer I didn't kill the guy, my finger just pulled the trigger.. the bullet did it." Just typical wanted reality to fit what we want.

 

well technically my ferrari manual says nothing of a manual transmission. It's mechanical and F1.

In both types the driver manually performs an action that changes the gear.

but seriously, how fast do you need to buy a car? It takes little time to look at a picture of the console to determine if you have a stick or paddles.
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Alton- No, but if you look in the parts catalog, there is only one transmission.

Lots of insecure 3 pedal drivers here. Must have learned to drive on an automatic.

 

Have to agree that the 3-pedal camp seems threatened by the notion that the F1 is a type of manual transmission. I don't get this. I like manuals and good automated manuals. Each has its merits. Some who prefer the manual, however, act as if driving a manual requires great skill and therefore wear it like a badge of honor. It's really no great feat though. I taught my ex-girlfriend to drive a manual in 20 minutes, and then she drove the car home for an hour by herself. Driving a manual doesn't make you some kind of hero.

 

Oh shoot! I accidentally got you and another user from the Carolinas mixed up! :S

Wut??? I think a better analogy here would be debating whether a smartphone is a telephone or computer.

So if I tape an image of a closely-spaced clutch and brake pedal on the brake pedal of an F1-equipped car, does that make it any more "manual" than it was originally?

 

Not threatened at all.

Just correcting an *apparently common* misconception and improper label.

"It's a manual transmission because you can select the gears"
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrohydraulic_manual_transmission

BMW has no such transmission currently.

 

Anything that has an auto mode, is an automatic transmission. Period. Makes zero difference if it uses a clutch or torque converter.

If it down shifts on its own, then it's an auto.

 

LOL this is quite the thread. Let's put our insecurities and religious arguments aside and look at the issue with logic.

Ferrari offered 4 models of 360:
360 Modena
360 Modena F1
360 Spider
360 Spider F1

The models designated as F1 have an electronically operated gear change done through paddles on the steering wheel. The others have a "traditional" shifter stick in the center console and a clutch pedal.

Now, sites like AutoTrader aren't specialized enough to list the 4 different models. Rather, they provide one model:
360

Body style:
Coupe (Modena) / Convertible (Spider)

Transmission:
Manual / Automatic

Now any savvy Ferrari enthusiast would know that a 360 was not offered with a traditional "automatic" transmission. So, what good is this Manual vs. Auto field if an Auto 360 doesn't exist? Well, perhaps it would make sense to list the F1 variant as automatic not as a testament to the transmission's capabilities, but rather as a categorization aimed to help potential buyers. After all, were I in the market for a 360 Modena F1, I wouldn't think to search for a 360 Coupe Manual. Another option is to not categorize F1 variants, but then how would anyone be able to filter out the antiquated 3 pedal variants nobody wants?

It's just common sense.


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Driving a three-pedal manual does make you slower, though.

Except that a dual-clutch in manual mode is fundamentally different than either an automatic or three-pedal manual. (Much faster than either.)

Maybe offer a delete option for the "auto" button so that purists can rest easier.

Bottom line: We need a third category in ads.

 

How big of a coding effort is it to add an option to a list box?

OTOH, I've seen 308s listed as automatics in dealer ads on DuPont Registry, so clearly these fields aren't populated by geniuses, regardless.

 

My BMW 535 has a "manual" option (paddle shifters). Thus that car is a manual?

 

This thread should be moved to politics and religion : )

 

Probably not much effort but in the meantime they cannot list F1 cars as automatic and 3 pedal cars as manual? Makes more sense to list them all as manual?

Really couldn't be any confusion as to what version you are looking for at that point. One can shift automatically and one can not.

As a side note, dictionary.com has the following definitions-

Automatic transmission- "an automotive transmission requiring either very little or no manual shifting of gears"

Manual transmission- "an automotive transmission in which the driver shifts gears manually"

Seems rather intuitive so I will go with it. I somehow doubt it will be changed to "an automotive transmission used in vehicles in which the driver shifts gears manually but clutch operation and the shift mechanism has been automated. TCU has option of full automation or input for -requested- gear"

 

I'm sure we can all tell that our three pedal cars are sooooo much slower in daily driving that if we had opted for two pedals.

Driving what I consider an automatic is like watching TV on a CRT vs a LCD display. From the seat (or couch, in this case); you can't really tell any difference between a traditional automatic or an F1 unit from the outside (sort of like how you you see a screen on both TVs that displays the same picture). One looks like a TV, and the other looks like a TV (conversely, from behind the seat, you see two pedals and paddle shifters in what happens to be a conventional automatic, and see two pedals and paddle shifters in happens to be an F1, with both having fully automatic modes). Thus, I don't see how they are different, even if the fundamentals are.

 

Sorry, but this is just wrong. Look up the definition of "automated manual transmission" and compare it to "automatic transmission." The name that applies relates to the mechanism used to shift gears, not the driver's impression as to what is happening. An automated manual may seem like an automatic transmission to you, but that doesn't make it one.

 

Let's remember what this thread was about. The real issue was F1's listed as manual transmissions and 3 pedal buyers were annoyed that they were misled with "manual" as the transmission. But if you're trying to sell an F1 isn't it better to say it's not a "manual" because all you do is piss off 3 pedal manual buyers. On the other hand buyers who want F1 transmissions might move on because they think it's a 3 pedal car. If you're trying to sell something being at least apparently honest is the best policy. And for the egotistical and neurotic F1 owners who can't say they have an automatic transmission, then don't enter a transmission option in the ad; at least you'll be honest.

 

"Egotistical and neurotic F1 owners"? Glad to see you're sticking to "what this thread was about."

 

Hey! That means I couldn't post in it! I love these manual/automated manual threads, because I learn how to become better at debating!

But I am genuinely curious...for those of you who think that an F1/E-Gear unit with two pedals, paddle shifters, and an automatic button is a manual, what now qualifies as an actual automatic? Please don't give me the multiple clutch, quicker shift speed, and paddle shift argument, because Chevy's new 8L90 in the Corvette shifts more quickly than Porsche's PDK, and VW markets their DSG as an automatic. It's either one or the other.

 

Where might I find these definitions? They are not in Webster. Say "automated manual" out loud ten times. It is one of the worst oxymorons there is. The word "automatic" refers to method of operation. Whether or not the mechanical unit being operated has a dry clutch or torque converter is irrelevant.

Dave

 

OK you're right, but most of this thread was about F1 owners pretending they have manual transmissions. The OP was about selling cars.

 

I'm sure you can search the internet as well as I can. I'm not going to spend time doing it for you.

Or you could describe it as manual owners desperately clinging to the belief that automated manuals are merely automatics and that real men drive manuals. As I said early on, the issue is that there needs to be three categories on these sites: manual, automatic, and automated manual.

 

Press the "Auto" button on the center column and the car shifts automatically for you.

Unless I'm missing something...

I don't care really.. it just makes an F1 owner sound like an idiot when they talk about their "manual transmission" at C+C. Even EVO drivers take a pause and shake their head. "more money than brains ferrari owner.. doesn't even know what kind of transmission his car has."