This is another reason why non-racing Ferraris should have manual gearboxes.

woah woah woah.


Guys I am sorry. I didn't realize calling a car unferrari like was going to cause that big of a stir. Its still a ferrari. I have owned 360s. I love them. One of my favorite cars is a 360 CS. I also don't think there is a better car to drive on a beautiful day on a fun road than a 360 spider with a capristo and a 6 speed. Yes I even said 6 speed. Just because i said its the most unferrari doesn't mean its a bad car! I didn't mean it that way. It was just a ferrari marketed more to the masses is all I meant by it and with almost 20k sold it was a huge success. There are great atributes to a 360. It looks and sounds worlds better than a 430 (ok 430 guys get ready to chime in and hate me now) and it is a fairly bullet proof car! I actually really like them! I guess I should have kept my mouth shut. LOL

I do apologize I didn't mean to offend. Again, I have owned them, and I actually really like them. I just sold my 2002 360 spider 6 speed and I wish I still had it. i just couldn't turn down the price.

 

360s are more car than probably 98% of the people can handle for sure. Great car.

Also, there was one guy who ran a f1 car in challenge. Thats why I said the guy and not guys.

 

Lol!

(And I think you're right. Confirmed it at a recent seance.)

 

"ignoramus"

But yeah, I think real enthusiasts can enjoy anything from a classic 308 or 911 RS with a proper gated shifter gearbox to a modern 488 or GT3 RS with a proper modern gearbox.

 

technom3

Thanks for the clarifications. No harm no foul brother! I still respectfully disagree in the sense that if ultra-exclusivity (I think 15K world wide is still okay for the 360) is the main criteria for being a Ferrari, well that would pretty much put out the 458 (there's quite of those produced) as being 'unFerrari' too!

I think I understand where you're coming from..there is no shortage of Ferrarista that says every Ferrari is not a ferrari after Fiat took over. Or that only a V12 Enzo Era Ferrari is a 'real' Ferrari

My mechanic says everything after the 355 is no longer "Ferrari" (similar I believe to your context)

I'm sure now we're entering the Sergio Era, maybe 40 years from now, there will be people that say everything after Ferrari went Public is 'unFerrari'

who knows....

So what does "Ferrari" mean to me then? And what counts as a Car being a Ferrari?

I would say #1 is the way the car makes you consistently feel. I've been in plenty of 911s of various vintages/trims and still don't get that special feeling of being in any Ferrari in my club. The sound, smell, visceral thrills, simply can't be matched by modern marvels...sure you'll go twice as fast, but is it twice as fun? My brother has a p85+, he loves it - it can do rings my car, but I feel like I'm sitting in a massage chair...I love feeling every pop/zing/crackle of the engine. I love feeling the road like I"m in karting...etc

Sure you have Lambo and the like....which brings me to #2

Other Tifosi...Owners track events, Formula 1 parties, Rallies, Dealer Events...

I simply can't celebrate Lamborghini in it's sporting events the same way I celebrate with other Ferrari fans...it's cool to be able to participate in these sporting events, the same way people love supporting their local basketball/football/baseball team....

For these reasons, I think the 360 is as "Ferrari" as they come

 

150+ posts on "Is it a Ferrari?"

Opinions t'is all it is. We're all entitled to our own opinions but our own facts are definitely not allowed!!

I own a manual 360, just recently in fact. It's red with a black interior. I really wanted a proper red Ferrari with a crema/tan interior and, and as it happens an F1 gearbox.

This manwelly one with a black inside I have though, is, in my humble (and it is humble) opinion a very nice one. Probably the best Ferrari.. In the Worrrldd.

 

I guess the fear is Ferrari becomming so "user friendly" that they are lined up with macans and a Panamera at the school pickup. Cars that can lap nurbering in whatever time, but as simple as a minivan in all other regimes.

An interesting trend we see with the Maclren 570s and the lust announced 911R. Cars that effectively dialback ultimate laptimes for greater driver involvement and enjoyment. The 570s uses narraower tires and less aero, plus simpler suspension to acheive this. By all driving accounts so far they have suceeded remarkably, including having great steering feel.

The 911R takes this formula one step further by adding a stick to a dewinged narrower tired Gt3.

The essential arguemnt is that cars have become so capable, and also so focussed on acheving better paper specs that driving engagement and enjoyment has been lost. Now we see some new cars that dial back laptimes as a consequence of dialing engagement back in.

This is all also relative, even a 570's is way way faster than anyone can really go on the road, so the loss of performance is a paper number, but the gain in entertainment very real.

Ferarri imo would do well to make some models like this too. Yes many buy ultimate performance in class, but not everyone measures performance the same way.

 

Very interesting...

I was not aware of the "911R", but looks like Porsche does listen to their customers. (There was a whole lot of kvetching going on about 911 GT3 no longer having MT).

I also hear they may be adding a GT-4 version of the Boxster Spyder to the lineup as well. Glorious (although I wish they would fix the tall gearing issue).

Too bad Ferrari only listens to $$$$$.

 

911R reputedly 700 units, all sold prior to any car being seen, because you know no one wants a manual, except apparently some do.

Would love to see a cayma/boxter Gt4 running a GT3 motor even if its a detuned version.

 

There wasn't any guy that ran an f1 355 challenge.

They're was a woman, though (Carol Hollfelder).

 

Porsche has a sufficient, established market size that 700 cars is a drop in the bucket, and the majority of the "parts" have already been developed and incorporated (R&D, homologation costs incurred) on other models in their range. Porsche also has enough of a volume of known, established manual gearbox customers that demand for new cars (and commits to buy) are easier to capture.

I stand to be corrected, but having purchased 2 Porsche "low volume" models over time, i either had to slam down a deposit, and/or the dealer committed the order before Porsche built the car. They tend not to do "build to stock".

Ferrari is "build to actual order", and for the reasons debated above, it appears that with the recent/current generation cars, the people who were actually buying the cars just did not want/order them. You cannot design and manufacture new cars aimed at the secondary market - they need to sell new cars to make money. You COULD order a 599, 612, 430 and early Cali with a MT....few did.

Why? I'm sure there were some people who wanted the cars and didn't know their way around a shift knob. In my case, I have 2 MT performance cars and love them, period. But for a tech-led modern "supercar", the DCT is simply better suited. For as perfect the gated shifter in my 355 is, it would be way out of place in the Speciale.

I still love AP's quotes on the PDK in the GT3 - shut up and drive. Would love to hear Felisa say the same thing

 

TRashy Car for Trashy Kardashians.

Unfortunately, their 15 minutes of fame is streching to 39 minutes.

 

Well Said!!!!

Learn how to drive a stick and then if you want a Paddle shift I am cool with it. Beiber and Kar-Trashians are posers and have no real love of cars or good style for that matter.

 

Porche sells lots of cars. But if you look at the Gt3 category cars, or caymans(which is where the 911R and GT4 fit) they sell less than ferrari. Yet the cayman Gt4 single handedly doubled cayman sales.

In the case of the 911R the majority of the parts have not been developed, simply because a new Gt3 engine has never been mated to a manual. As AP said the driveline is a complete unit in these computer times, thats why they couldnt offer a manaul option as well. So its essentiualy a full redo to integrate the motor and tranny, the same would apply at ferrari.

Liek GT3s et al to buy a ferrari you have to plunk your cash down and wait on order. Exceot ferraris sell to favored clients who buy mostly what the dealer ordered on the list, cars to flip after 6 months.

There are numerous stories on Fchat of people wnating to buy 430 manuals and being refused by dealers. Incidentaly look at the premium for used newer manual ferraris.

Now the 911R and Cayman GT4, none of these cars built to order, theyw ere soild out within minutes of their anouncement.

I guess for many we want drivers cars not necessarily tech led to the exclusion of driving enjoyment..

 

you are quite often the voice of reason my friend!!

 

The only correction I would make is that manual buyers weren't refused by dealers but rather by FNA and, presumably, the factory. Manuals were separate models from paddles and allocated separately. I know our dealer had at least one order for a manual that was never allocated.

Another factor was "flipping." Early 430s could be flipped for big profits. I don't know what other dealers did, but I know our local dealer advised people to order colors and options that would have the best resale. That included ordering paddles. The ratio of paddles to sticks might have been different if cars were sold to end users only (like me.)

One of the reasons I decided to buy a 430 new was that I figured the days of sticks at Ferrari were numbered. As it was, I sweated it out until they announce a manual would be built. If I ended up with a paddle car, I would have flipped it.

Dave

 

Porsche is making some great moves of late. They do have the luxury of playing the field a bit -- they have enough volume cars, and their traditional sports cars themselves have become more accessible (drive a 991 carrera and you will see what I mean). Gives them additional leeway to really lean in on the enthusiast offerings, which I frankly think is great.

 

Heard this story about trying to buy a manual 430 more than once.

I am guessing that ferrari could sell all the cars they wanted, so figured why bother with a manual, esp when you can sell a paddle for more. If i remember correctly the 430 was also intialy available with steel brakes, but then they switched to mandatory cermaics.
The ferrari model unmder Luca was to limit cars and then make fortunes on pricey options.

If Sergio wants to sell more cars esp in these times, he is going to have to offer more models, or like porche more variants that appeal to a wider spectrum, an underserved group is driving enthusiasts.

 

Wish my wife could read this.

 

I agree w/most of this.

One tiny adjustment is that I wouldn't bucket the 911R with the GT4. I had no shot at the R but made the list on the GT4... the R is a much more exclusive model.

The GT4 had good hype, but it built to a crescendo, allowing early movers to jump on it and get an allocation.

 

Yep. That's what I think. I won't be buying any more new Ferraris but I know they don't miss me!

Dave

 

We'll make sure she doesn't.

Just "tha man" keepin' you down.


LOL!

 

Next-Gen Porsche 911 GT3 to Once Again Offer a Manual Transmission ? News ? Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFghHKEd7vE&list=PLf6xEkPrQwBUuY3PI7R-d-ZQFVNs0HLuP&index=4[/ame]

 

Not a huge surprise (hopefully this comes true).

Porsche has been looking at the prices for their cars in the resale market and figured they'd tap back into that demand. Smart move, particularly going for the 6MT and not the 7MT.