This is another reason why non-racing Ferraris should have manual gearboxes.

Fair point, but how do you discern that dct is not an integral part of the car being a climate controlled cocoon, given that only moderns have DCT.

 

Ah but Lewis Hamilton famously had pagani build him a purple stick zonda. Which says a lot about his choice for a road car, stick, light, no nannies powerful and not red. Pretty much my formula, unfortunatly cant swing a zonda.

 

Xactly, and back roads are more fun in a stick viceral machine than a dct caccon where only ridiculous velocity thrills. Corse I am willing to be most ferraris dont get flogged on backroads, the moderns are for driving tot he pose, and the old ones for meuseums, except maybe the mondials 308s 355s and some 550s, not to mention one or two boxers and trs.

 

yup! (about Hamilton) ... it's crazy how quickly they flick those paddles- I shake my head sometimes the number of gear changes they do in fraction of second!

 

Your preaching to the choir my friend!

That's why it all comes back to the business...if the majority of your customers are not demanding it, and the DCT is giving you the performance edge in the magazines (XXX is the fastest to 0-60) so I will get car X over car y (without a regard if it's DCT or stick) .... the manufacturers will follow where the $$$ is.

Do I enjoy rowing my own gears? Undoubtedly! But that's me, I would never challenge somebody's 'real driving' chops if they didn't know how to drive stick...or claim they were any more 'real' or 'fake'

I reserve my final judgement on things like individual skill/proficiency for the track, same car, same set up...specifically lap times...

 

I haven't driven an Alfa 4C, but I imagine that would be the ultimate test. I sat in one at the dealer, and can vouch that it's not an oversized cocoon.

 

Can't help but think Lotus Elise when looking at the 4C.

I can't really fit (properly) in some of these smaller cars -- some are fine, but some are just too cramped for my height. So to me I need some cabin space, though I don't mind a tighter space overall (just need room to position w/pedals).

I do lament the upsizing in sports cars overall but benefit by being able to actually fit and not contort.

Shocked that Clarkson can fit in so many cars he test drives (I guess "fit" is subjective in this case). I think he owned a Gallardo at some point... when I sat in one, I knew it had to be crossed off my list, permanently.

I would be okay with less sound insulation and avoiding the unnecessary weight. Can do without Nav, even without electric windows, and with a tinny sound system (or none at all), if it gives the right rawness.

 

Get a superformance GT40 or Daytona coupe.

 

M roadster or coupe should be added to that list (favorite of mine that I actually fit, despite a tight cabin).

Always had my eye on early Vipers but have never driven one and heard that on most roads, can be a bit much (width?)

 

Less visceral in my book means less fun. Faster yes, but less fun and engaging.

 

I agree. But, I don't think a DCT is less fun a three-pedal manual. I do think the isolation and over-technification (is that word?) of modern cars has removed the ragged edge that made vintage/classic sufficiently dangerous. You don't have to push a Porsche 356 very hard to get an adrenaline rush. The fact that it's a three-pedal manual has little to do with that.

To put it another way: If you offered me a choice between a 599 with an F1 gearbox or a 599 with three-pedal manual (setting aside speculation/investment), I wouldn't consider it much of a choice in terms of how exciting the car is. Either one is still a highly automated vehicle, and having a clutch pedal doesn't change the "driver involvement" equation all that much, IMHO. The car is doing a lot of what were formerly mental calculations when it comes to road surface, brake application, wheel-spin detection, suspension load, etc. Plus, the car has so much torque that gear selection isn't that big a deal. I view the three-pedal option in that car as almost incidental, not fundamental to its character. That's largely how I feel about modern performance cars.

 

I find us in near total agreement on this. That's why most of the moderns are better with paddles esp given their high rev low Tq nature. Those that have tried a 599 stick say it's ill suited.

However one can design a viceral live modern, at least that is the way the 997gt3 felt to me, the best of both.

I also hold out hope that with the lower redline and increased Tq implicit in turbo setups the modern driveline will once agin suit a manual. The 488 gt3 pics I have seen make it a dead ringer for a modern f40.

We can also get into the irrelevant speed in street context of moderns, the pursuit of which dilutes Feel and Feed backs as per your post. That's why the 570s paddles and all is such a breath of fresh air, by all reports they have dialed back ultimate lap times for engagement.

 

I have an e46 m3 same generation as the m coupe. Compared to the boxer it's pretty dull, compared to the Elise it's dead, compared to the gy40 it's as lifeless and ponderous as a pickup truck.

There really is
Much to be said for
A really together tight car with no ps or other filters.

Go for the gt40 you only live once.

The older vipers from what I hear have poor suspension dynamics and sound like crap, iMovie hearing a great motor sing is one of the great driving pleasures.

That's why it's hard to beat a 308 boxer re or 997 gt3
He'll even a Modial is a great drive

 

I also like McLaren's position of a "usable" super car; the 570S looks brilliant and IMO is better looking than their other cars. But, if you think about it, most of the super cars from Lambo, Ferrari, and others are also already usable. Anyone can drive these cars with little or no skill.

As far as ultimate track experience, it is best to get a dedicated track car: For a fraction of the price of the typical "domesticated" super car, you can have something that will crush almost anything you can legally drive on the public roads. Or, you can always buy one of the Club or Challenge cars if money is not an issue.

Regardless, there IS strong demand for visceral cars that are more involving and fun - not necessarily the fastest or most tech-savvy. These cars are also great for improving driving skills.

 

If mclaren made the 570 in a manual id be lining up to buy it. Nothing sets it apart from the rest of the group

 

+1. Have a gt40r and nothing on the fun rating scale has compared to it on the track for me.

 

I just think Ferrari should always manufacture are a manual with an unassisted rack and pinion steering, drive by cable, no or minimal driver aids and with that wonderful sound the flat crank engines make. Make all the cream puffs too but have that raw, mechanical car as a halo product even if they only make 100 or so a year. At this rate they'd sell out and people would quickly turn to the techno wizardry dominated cars but still believe they're a part of that "drivers car" tradition. If nothing else it'd be good marketing IMO. My 84 year old father, who is not a car guy at all saw a 458 at a stop light. He said Stuart, that looks like a Buick. You sure that's a Ferrari? I said yeah, I am. He said well, Why don't they make them pretty anymore. He meant nothing by the comments but part of me had to agree. Thing is, the 458 is the best looking one..

 

I think this is awesome idea....

 

Thanks. Add to that leather hides made the way they used to in vats or whatever old school techniques used in the 50s and 60s. Use the old foundry equipment with the hot metal poured from the old boilers with the chain pulleys lifting and lowering them..hot metal splashes out while craftsmen use English wheels and hand tools to make the body panels. I mean this would keep that old world, hand-built craftsmanship heritage that is a big part of Ferrari lore alive and continuing IMO. Think of seeing this live on a factory tour. The contrast with the Mies Van Der Rohe/ Bauhaus mod thing they've got going on now. Who wouldn't want one of those cars made the old way when men really had to drive to get around the track? Few could actually own one as only the best customers get the limited allotment but man, your sold on the red mist with such a creature still being made and hey, that other Ferrari that you can get certainly has the spirit in it too right? I'll take that 488..yeah.

 

Great observation.

 

Entertaining video on manual shifting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTwnsWdxZ3M

 

Good article in the wsj today got me thinking. Automatic technology is advancing fast and soon itll be faster for full automation over the paddles. So all the paddle shifting fans can soon look forward to no paddles. After all, it's faster so why use paddles? Just let the computer do it all!

 

Was at one very large exotics dealer looking for a 911 few years back and was contemplating one with PDK. Saw it had the toggles rather than sport design (paddles) for shifting and noted to the sales guy I prefer sport design and so how much to swap wheels. He said "no difference between wheels... the computer shifts faster than you can in auto mode so no reason to manual shift anyways..."

In sport mode he might be technically correct. So we are already there in a sense.

 

Great post, and in a way it supports what I wrote earlier: People are focused on the presence/absence of three-pedal manuals when it's really much more than that. For a 308 or 512 BB, a three-pedal/gated manual is very consistent with the design and manufacture of the car, and the performance envelope of that era. In a 458, it looks terribly out of place, given the digital/high-tech environment. Likewise, when people put high tech alcantara racing seats in a 308, it looks sort of off.

We won't see a return to that handbuilt era -- cars are too technology-saturated now to be pounded out in a foundry. They're lighter, more rigid, and engineered to much closer tolerances, and produced in greater quantities. (For Ferrari, the 360 was the start of that era.) That's why the vintage/classic stuff is so worth the extra expense and compromise. Whatever modern car is on one side of my garage, I always get a rush slipping into a 308 or 328, as well as my old Porsche.

That's true for the Audi TT I've been daily driving. I've never formally timed it, but in 'S' mode it hangs on to every gear till redline. I have to manually upshift to 6th gear on highways and long straights even in S mode, but I doubt I could beat Audi's engineering/maths when it comes to flat out acceleration. When I do shift manually, it's more about feeling in control than anything.

 

One of my clients is a large auto manufacturer with a very rich history. They have a center devoted to keeping their classic cars on the road. It's actually an entirely separate factory. They call it a "workshop" but I have a small office that I use there when I'm on site and it's a full on factory in many ways. This manufacturer is well known for their attention to detail and originality. They don't give tours and the majority of the building is off limits to tourists. However, if you do get to walk through you get to see things being made by old men in a very old, time honored fashion. It is absolutely spectacular to behold.

The company supports this endeavor wholeheartedly, not because it's a profit center (I don't know if it even breaks even), but because it's the best way to support the brand and the history that makes a huge difference when selling its new cars, especially sports cars.

The whole thing is very amazing to behold. When I'm there, I spend days there and never feel like I get enough.