This is another reason why non-racing Ferraris should have manual gearboxes.

Can't tell if you're serious or not... If serious, then yawn away but prepared for some flies getting in your mouth soon, since that market is starting to look pretty rotten.

 

But people still use downhill skies, not everyone uses the new tech of snowboards, in fact a lot of kids get board with boarding and move to harder to use skies, same in waterskiing.. Tech made parabolic downhill skies and better boots, but it did not entirely replace downhill skiing.

Tech has made better more responsive, smoother and more reliable motors, better shifting manual transmssions, better brakes and suspension, even paddles, none of these need remove the essential experience in fact they can enhance it. But as you yourself say modern cars have become remote. Its not the tech itself, more the manner in which it is applied. The attempt to make cars "useable" for a broad nadwidth and the chasing of paper specs has changed things not necesarily for the better.

 

Agreed about the sheilds, say a lot.

 

Whatever. Sounds like I might get that Coal Harbor weekend apartment I promised my wife years ago. Yawn.

 

Up there with putting replica racing decals on a replica gt40 no?

 

I like the way you play amteur reporter trying to put words in peoples mouths. If you have an opnion express it, dont rely on trying to put false words in my mouth.

So let me spell it out for you slowly and clearly, mr old muscle car man..

I dont care about exclusivity. Ferrari is harldley exclusive these days anyway, not even sure what the appeal of exclusive is. What I care about is great product and choice. The lack of to use your words "exclusivity" means there is sufficient volume at ferrari to develop great products, which imo is great. What I want is a modern viceral live car, somehtign with the benefits of tech and the great dynamic feedback dna inherant in the older cars.

If I wanted exclusivity and a horsey I certainly wouldnt have spent more on a car "built in a shed" with no badge and a ford motor than the 458 I tired and decided not to buy.

As to the viper its very real flaws are what keeps it from selling. Yes I know the laptimes look great. But the motor sounds like crap you can hardley see out of it, the pivot point for the driver is in front of the rear axle and its not subtle. If the viper had a pushrod v12 imo it would sell far better.

The Gt350 and 350R are well sold out, just as the Gt4 is sold out and the 911R. The reasons are not because these cars are the fastest, but because they are a great blend of all the attributes of motor chasis brakes transmsiion etc that make for a superlative drivers car, both on and off track. I woudl like to see and buy a ferrari interpetation of this, thats all. It is a sucessful fornmula.

Fearrari is about tech, well soemetimes you have tech just for techs sake or brand image and the product suffers. Ferrari like harley is also aparently lifestyle brand, and I guess that lifesyle foir ferrari is fake F1 for the street wanabe tech for poseurs and anoraks.

The extra speed that tech brings on track is irelevant when say a z06 viper etc are quicker, and none of those is as quick as a real track car anyway. For the street the tech imo takes away too much. If ferrari is about tech why the cali, I guess they are exploring niche.

My harley anaology is apt. Harley by their own words sells "lifestyle" not motorcycles, by chance some of their bikes happen to be cool in retro fun sort of way.

Its interesting how so many harley riders have extra loud pipes, which if you know harkey motors reduces performance(compared to proper tuned exhausts) , kinda like sheilds on a ferrari then.

If ferrari sells Brand and lifestyle thats fine, porche has its majority of sales there too. I just also want some cool products for drivers and imo if they want to increse sales significantly past the current poseur base that is what they will do.

I guess for you what makes ferrari great is the tech and implied performance on the drive to the concors, Some of us still like to you know actualy drive, sanely is vigorously on street and harder on track.

 

What words am I putting in your mouth? Your own if you can remember what you have written. Your in love with the exclusivity a brand like Ferrari could offer if only they would listen to you. Ferrari is what it is and will become what it wants. If it doesn't aline with the image you want, go where it does granted it won't have a horse on it which seems to be the sticking point here.

 

I'm still loving the "it's faster" argument.

Power windows, power memory seat, navigation, multi speaker audio, retractable roof, leather seats, power mirrors, cruise control, bluetooth, shields....

....it's clear every effort was made to make the car as fast and light as possible. Who could risk losing .0000000013 seconds on a shift for the sake of driving enjoyment.

I personally do not track my car. On the street of course I like shifting my own gears and having the ability to skip gears. Lane change? Quickly dropping from 6th to 3rd is slower than 7-6-5-4-3?

IMO manual trans is better suited for the street when you need to change lanes/skip gears. (unless you are just cruising around your F1 trans car at 5k rpm so you never have to downshift).

F1 I'm sure is better at the track, where I've been a handful of times in my life. (and if I went today doubt I would have any trouble keeping pace with an F1 355 vs my gated).

 

The same, hard to say which one is worse, each is trying to pretend at being a sort of race car without the real backup in performance or use.The sheilds or decals pretend soemthign that should be said by the way the car is used.

In my book replica decals on replica is slighlty less ofensive purely because a replica is already a replica. But then I dont really like replicas that try pretend to be what they are not dynamicaly or in use.

In any event there are plenty of perfectly valid "recreations" built by the origional manufacturers or type holders for those owners and even non owner enthusiasts who can appreciate what a machine really is, as opposed snobbery of when or where it was built.(SPF GT40's Gelescoe, Chevron, Lola, Pur Sang, Kirkham, Lynx Xkss, Aston sanction 2 zagato, etype lightweights etc)

I have no problem with a recreation that says it is exactly what it is, so yes I would love a "real" 288 without horsies new built wherever that is, as long as it really had all the same bits and build as an old built. To avoid any doubt amongst anoraks and snobs mine wouldnt be red.

In some sense this is even more honest than a data plate pretending to be an old car, when its really a new build recreation as so many "historic" cars are. Ask me about the lemans GT40 that burned to the ground during the filming of lemans the movie and was "restored" decades later and sold for 11 million. I know where they got the tub and bodywork, same place I got mine.

Thats why my replica GT40 sports no period corect paint job at all, or decals, I dont look to fool anyone who knows or cares, I let the machine speak for itself in terms of how its built and how it goes, especialy on track. If I am replicating anything its the personal experience of racing and mastering a 1960s lemans winner. My replica is a recreation in the sense its the same tub suspension motor(well 302 not 289) etc, its also to the extent relevant licensed, so we are not rippingn off type holders.

Whatever peoples views, the Gt40 is enaging and fast in way that moderns are not, and for that to me it was worth the price in $ and some tasteless ridicule.

I am not a pro racer, I drive for skill and entertainment, whatever street ferrari there is always going to be a faster car for track. Ferrari used to make cars for amateur racer, drivers like me, now mostly they dont, and the few they do(speciale) get sold to collectors who put them in garages.

Funny at the track, the dude with a real GTO 333 F50 lm etc loves the Gt40, as do the people in miata, because instead of being a car with a badge, one ride, and one look at how its built and what it is, and you know its the "real" thing, not a "real" 60s Gt40 but the real thing regarless of badge if you catch my meaning. The hired guns who race historic "real" Gt40s for the billionaires love to drive mine, in their words its the real thing, just not so precious that you cant really use it.

So my issue with modern ferraris is that while they are great for driving around town and in traffic and are also terrifiicaly fast for a few laps, they just are not much fun below 9/10ths on street, require little of their driver and reward comensuratly, while being prohibitive to run on track in any serious manner. Of course that is just my opnion, but many other seem to share it to.

Lets see ferrari build a modern interpretation of a 250 swb for the well healed masses, somethign me with a v8. Kinda like an elise is a dynamicaly modern me rendition of everything that made the origional elan so great. I know I am a customer, and apparently there are others, certainly the formula works at porche, so I an guessing in ferrariland too.. Its not even that expensive to devlop, just a derivation of most of what they already build. Make mine TDF blue or Grigio, something to blend in a little not catch the eye miles out..

 

Possibly you are so blinded by prejudice or what you imagine you dont understand what I write.

See I dont love a brand for exclusivity, I even find the term brand and all it implies offensive. I love cars purely for what they are and judge each acordingly, regardless of badge or price.

 

But is your paddle shift car a street car, or exclusively a race car?

 

Drive and enjoy what you like. Everyone that drives a Ferrari shares some degree of enthusiasm for the make one way or another. Peeled those replica decals off your replica Gt40 yet? Real Ferrari's rolling with factory shields and that is poser? I just don't get you. How many new 6 speed 360's or maranello's have you bought? You weren't there for Ferrari and now you want Ferrari to build more of what you already didn't buy?

 

I think drive and enjoy what you like is key.

That said, his point about the shields is (I think) similar to those giant "Polo" logos. Or people who wear T shirts with some high end fashion house logo / name on it.

At one time, some brands stand for the quality element. At other times (or over time) brands themselves start to eclipse the original reason for the brand's reputation.

When the image becomes the biggest element, it can be offputting to people more focused on the substance.

Not agreeing or disagreeing on the MT vs. DCT debate here, but I see that point.

 

Just

Both are great for completely different reasons. It just stupid to label people for choosing one over the other. Ferrari has always been a fashion brand getting bodied in the latest trend or even creating the style. I was the first one on here to say Ferrari should remake the Dino. I'll try to find the post from years back. Dino should be resurrected for all the reasons mentioned but Ferrari is basically high tech and fashion and they never look back, only to the future. Perhaps it's the racing mindset to always out perform the past.

 

I can't speak for Boxer but I think sometimes the broad-brush generalizations are taken too personally. When speaking of majority of customers, I tend to side with his view of the world. When speaking of the majority of people on this website, I tend to assume a much different mix of people.

But I do think the majority mix has become far more image conscious than in the past. The danger to Ferrari is that some of these people could swing to another brand (Bentley, Aston, etc if the conditions are "just right").

 

More like swing to Lamborghini or Maclaren, this is the competition and these companies are very aware of what the other is doing and how well they are doing. There is a lot of concern over marketshare and the stakes are high with all of them viying to be the Alpha.

 

Dont have any replica decals on my Gt40, or decals at all, as I said previously there is not even period copied paintwork, so anyone who knows Gt40s is going to know its not a period car. But then people who know GT40s and look at it closely always ask what it is because its so close and I am always happy to tell them.

But then the only people who have really even seen the GT40 car are those at the track, and those are drivers impressed with its build and performance. Dont take it to shows, dont drive on street except when roads really empty and then only on ocasion, the boxer and elise are there for backroad street use.

Like my other cars the Gt40 is for my enjoyment and what others think is not of much relevance.

BTW What hi po mid engined style cars or v12s do you or have you owned? Or is it just currently old american muscle. Do you track? Or is it just cruising?

As to being a loyal ferrari customer, I did buy my boxer from a ferrari dealer, plus I service with them because there is one tech there who knows my car intimatly. So in 20 years they are 100k up on serivce fees alone. I would say that makes me a great and loyal ferrari customer, the type of customer any car company would love to have. Perhaps thats why they keep inviting me, now that sales are slow, to try the new machines. Its also why their reps ask my opinion.

BTW when I wanted to buy a new 360 6 peed they were so backordered to flippers ferrari wouldnt even take a 50K deposit, couldnt care less that I was a long term owner looking to add to the fleet somehtign not to sell or flip. The 430 same deal except ferrari wouldnt even consider delivering a manual, and I am not the only one with that experience.

Time of the 458 you could order a car and wait 6 months which is no big deal. I went to the dealer (check in hand) who knew me well from my car and service visits. We had an extensive test drive. The car just did not light my fire as a road car, and wouldnt really work on track other than in the most ocasional way. I spent my money elsewhere. So thats 3 ocasions ferrari could have sold me a car.

Like many I always wanted a fast italian exotic, owned a few lambos(350 Gt and CT) and kept the BBi because it was just better. When the time and opportunity came to buy new I was excited because the 458 is the first really great lookign ferrari in a long time. I just found the product dynamicaly wanting in terms of experience.

Since I am an actual buyer, owner keeper and driver of such machines, it may behoove ferrari to listen to me and others like me, especialy if they want to get to 10k sales as they say. Or they could just keep doing what they are doing and see how it all works out.

Given the decline in sales(they reduced production last year) fast depreciation of newer used ferraris, which are now just used cars, and a desire to grow sales. Then perhaps selling some cars suited to driver enthuisiasts is a good plan to add 25% sales.

Currently imo shortermer flippers buy cars the used ferrari enthuisiasts(ie real driver who cant afford new) do not appreciate as much as before, hence the big premium on manual 360s over paddles and the uncharateristicaly heavy depreciation on non current models. There is a reason 360 are just a used car whereas a 360 manual is much sought in the used market.

Of course since you are great with all ferrari currently offers you are free to buy one anytime you want as with the rest of the 70% they currently serve.

Those of us who want something different and imbued witht he type of DNA that made us fans of the compnay can appeal with logic to ferrari to do so. Since a number of us are actual buyers ferrai is showing signs of listening at least from what they tell me..

That you dont like or value the type of cars I would like, or would buy a ferrari for different reasons with diferent characteristics to me is your choice, I think ferrari products already currently servs your needs as you ably point out.

Yes all of us who drive a ferrari do as you say share some enthusiasm for the make in some way, its just the root of our enthusiasm may come from very different places. There is place for both to coexist, and a buisness case for ferrari like others to serve more than one segment as porche discoverd with the Gt4 and now 911R.

In fact ferrari discovered the same thing with the 288 all those years ago, a car they though they would struggle to sell 250 of because it was so raw unrefined and hard to drive well.

 

Maybe. But ferrari was also a car consiseiurs brand not least becasue the fashion corwd coulnt sart one let alone drive it, hence the op.

But now they want to sel 10k units and they have never been shy of heritage or DNA, so I say they need to serve both segments.

 

Lambo does not quite have the fashionista cred Ferrari has, and aventador aside, as fast as they are its just heavy rebodied audis.

Maclaren is imo the anti ferrari. Its definitively not a fashion brand. They treat their customers well and are listening.

The slower 570s is more of a drivers car than the 12c and they are getting design right. In time they will also have a motor that is sonorous rather than blare.

Mclaren imo were tryign too hard to be all things, a driveable car with good fuel economy, and fantastic alive performance, that was the failure of the 12c it fell between two stools. But with the 675 and 570 we see they are developing essentialy the same platform in different directions to serve varied tastes and busdgets.

I think we will see more segementation at Mclaren of the same platforms, hard core track Gt3 style cars to granny driveable cars.

Mclaren is pickign up customers ferrari alienates though their sales practices, and is picking up the type of customer ferrari ignores product wise. Ferrari created the gap for Mclaren.
In fact mercedes sls, Mclaren Audi r8 and some super porches, these are all segements ferrari should own, but due to arrogance.

 

Imagine what a 288 gto was when it came out. Twin turbo EFI composite body panels. It was night and day in tech to a 250. Now imagine a 488 gto and how different it might be to a 288. Tech evolves. I don't expect to see an exact copy of a 288 made today or anything even close. I would love for that to happen but never will. For me the 288 gto was the pinnacle never to be surpassed. Ferrari has the luxury of building whatever it wants. If it feels it can move enough manuals to be worth the effort it will. Right now the consumer trend is manuals are dying or dead and that is why they are being dropped. If there is a market they will build them.

 

It's not that Ferrari has lost market share. It's that the market world wide has expanded allowing a greater number of players at different levels in the market. When you have the most powerful brand you want to stake your territory of the top. There is a case for a Dino brand similar to the alfa c4. Ferrari though should look to stay on top. The Cali to me was a miss-step.

 

Yes, I meant a swing in overall direction.

If lux is lux, and that may happen if cars become more fully automated, then the ones known for the lux will be the ones to win out.

Who can know for sure, right?

 

Another way to look at it is like this, Ferrari is still true to its hard core wealthy performance customer with cars like the FXX and 599XX. The FXX and its performance level can only be had on race courses and even then only for good customers that can afford it. 458 Challenge cars for those looking to campaign a race car. For street cars, the La Ferrari is todays version of the F40. The F12, 488 and FF are really the Testarossa's, 308's and Mondial's of yesterday that are really just there to be sold in volume pay the bills all the while Ferrari still competing in F1. I'd venture to say yesterday's 288 GTO or F40 customer is todays La Ferrari or FXX customer. Wealth has changed. When I was a kid you saw a Lamborghini or Ferrari maybe once. Now I can throw a rock and hit 3 Ferraris in my neighbourhood. Really nothing about Ferrari has changed at all except for the volume of their pay the bills cars. Todays high end F40 or La Ferrari customer just really went higher wealth with the lower end "308" or F12 488 FF customer just went to a higher volume.

 

I swear Boxerman gets a hard on every time he sees a stick shift.

What else can explain this obsession?

Here's today's viagra!
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Funny, I was agreeing with Bullfighter, its not about manuals here, its about he nature of the cars. Frankly if they made hardcore drivers machine in paddle thats fine too.