This is another reason why non-racing Ferraris should have manual gearboxes.

Just food for thought. What if by chance Ferrari dumped the gated shifter and took a few lesson's from the Mazda Miata about how a manual CAN BE a true joy? I believe in nostalgia but since Ferrari has tossed aside the manual for automation, dumping any sense of nostalgia, maybe they could offer all three types of transmissions? I realize that the gated shifter can become second nature with experience but it will never, imo of course, be as smooth or fast shifting as a non-gated manual transmission.

 

I have not had a chance to drive either. Sorry if I jumped to conclusions a bit too soon, and I didn't mean to accuse you of anything, but I've seen a couple of people who seem to think that, because they can move a lever from first to second, they can competently drive a manual. For some reason, they all seem to be driving manual F430s and 599s.

Here is a sample of what I'm talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW3kraE_R9M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQb57_rL1N0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODMIlCCf4r4

 

Had to cut my post short..

Anyway..the tech in cars now has gone well past what the vast majority of humans can keep up with. Car manufactures know this. Never mind emissions on top of that.

they are now rolling computers with a lithographs controlling pretty much everything. Put an unpredictable humans behined the wheel and you will get odd feed back from the car, which can be unsettling.

 

The little Mazda is designed with the manual in mind. The Ferrari's starting with the 430 was not. I believe the manual was offered in these cars to test the market. The market spoke.

It's crazy how far cars have come in just 10 short years.

 

Very well said.

 

The problem with this thread now is it has devolved into an endless debate. The fact of the matter is 'manual' in modern cars is objectively slower. That's just fact.

Whether it is (better, more fun, real, whatever you want to fill in) are not objective observations at this point for modern DCT cars. From a person that agrees with all those positive things I mentioned and had been driving manual for 20+ years.

This thread should have died a long time ago.

Why not begin arguing anybody that don't have the balls to drive on slicks on public roads is not a real driver? That they don't have talent or skill?

As I said so many times before - if you love stick drive it. Nobody here is stopping anybody from driving stick until the end of their days...enjoy! Quit telling people why somebody is real, or why it's superior, etc. Drive your car with manual transmission to your hearts content, and quit trying to peek/critique what kind of transmissions are in the cars next to you.

If your pissed that X manufacturer doesn't make stick anymore - well take it up with them or start your own car company - last I checked they are private companies and can do whatever they want to.

 

Nooooooo! I love the gated shifter. I've had manual cars that are not gated and don't think I could shift them any faster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAW5pOggjrg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4LG-aDRbg4

 

WOO HOO! That is a man who knows his gate! But let's be honest here, you know...man to man. You could have have shaved .026 of a second off of each shift if you took the paddle shift route.

 

Haha! Yes quite possibly

Ultimately it all comes down to the driver.

 

Slicks are illegal, highly dangerous on road and would perform poorly compared to nay other tire in that enviroment, so your analogy is false.

In any event the op was not taking performance, more like he felt that a manual would weed out the holywood poseur crowd, thats one discussion.

The debate has moved on pages ago as it always does to the desirebality of a stick in general for sportscars and whether Ferrai still makes or should make more viceral drivers cars, whether stick or not.

Some feel ferrari does just fine buiness wise as it is and who are we to say. Others of us would like to buy a "new" and yet viceral ferrari, preferably maybe manual but possibly stick, as stick is but one componant as other point out.

Some say that ferraris usp is uber tech. others feel they can also have a more "classic" range fitting well within their brand profile and that this would be a great way for ferrari to get the more sales it desires and aparently needs. Better than say another chick car autobox cali.

Evidence of this being a sucessful buiness model is proches sucess with the Gt4, the 911R and the rumored return of a manual to a Gt3, although given how tech laden and dependant the current Gt3 is, that may well not be a good seller.

We can also see in paddle land lambo going viceral with the 2wd gallardo, and mclaren going more driver centric with the 570s.

Seems like many here, wheter stick devotees or not, would like ferrari to bring back more raw and pure drivers cars, even at the expense of some paper numbers, which implies there is a driver core that ferrari currently ignores.

We dont need to tell Fearri anything, they want sales, its either more luxury, or more raw. We know raw is a niche, but we see from other manufactiers its a 30% niche when done properly. Fearri also has accidental hiostory of the 288 which begat the F40 that raw sells.

 

New Lambos suck, plastic.


I'm a hardcore Lambo guy and the cars they are building now don't make me happy. I have one of the new ones, plastic plastic plastic...$600K for plastic. I drove it 200 miles in 2 years because the plastic just pissed me off and took all the fun out of driving it.

So I bought a f12, not as plastic.

Ferrari owners have rings that are a little tight for me, the fashion, please.....

I've owned a few Ferrari and right now with the IPO play it looks as tho Ferrari could go the way Lambo did after Audi took over, it will be a slow transition to plastic. Very sad.


All I have

Kindest regards,

Eric

 

This ^^^^.

 

Thanks Sean for your thoughts, although I think we're unfortunately talking past each other. My post was to point out folks that are trying to objectively classify a drivers' skill, mettle, 'realness' based on their choice of transmission is painfully simplistic and without merit. I think we both agree here. My analogy of slicks was purposely absurd/facetious for your said reasons; it was to expose the ludicrous notion of the OP. It would test a driver's skill to the fullest would it not? That was my point for the extreme analogy.

**

I believe the clientele has spoken (for better of worse) Two articles (below) state that for the F430 and California, the 6-speed take rate was 1% for the F430 and only one (1) for the Cali.

Source Wired:
Porsche Puts Two More Nails in the Manual Transmission's Coffin | WIRED

Source: Automobile Mag
Last Waltz: The Final Stick-Shift Ferrari 599

Do I lament this? Of Course! as a Manual Transmission enthusiast myself! I have shirts with the classic gate....but the market is the market...nobody can deny this. There is simply not enough people that are demanding stick in the high-end exotic market. That's just fact.

To continue to harp on and on why Ferrari is now a car for poseurs, Hollywood brats, and race car driver wannabes (there is some truth to this) is just as simplistic as the OPs assertion...and denies the reality in the showrooms. Ferrari does offer one-off modifications for customers - with enough funds, they will be happy to take your money and accommodate whatever you want.

**

Would I start demeaning a modern day music artist that that do not offer a release in vinyl? If I seek it that format, I should take it up the artist, and I'm sure they will say back to me that there simply is not enough fans to purchase said format to make up the cost of the pressing.

It is what it is. In the end Ferrari still is a business they still have to make decisions that make financial sense or risk repeating 1969, especially now they are public.

To continue to beat this dead prancing horse of a topic is just for onanism at this point. Might as well start a thread of why electric cars are ruining the 'real' driving experience. (wait...I think there is several actually...)

 

no doubt, unfortunately, the bean counters have determined these 'harder core' enthusiasts are not numerous enough to make that strategic decision. As evidenced with recent take rates (see last post)

This niche market/enthusiats should put up or shut up. It's pretty much as simple as that. They were nowhere to be found for the F430 and Cali (if those articles I posted from Automobile and Wired are accurate)

I shall now go cry....okay I feel better....seeing the gated shifter in my garage...

 

The sales have been mentioned but could you even buy a manual 430 without ordering it? (were they on the showroom).

Just wondering how skewed the numbers are if everyone back then was faced with the choice of drive your F1 trans car away today or place an order for stick and pick it up in a year.

If dealers stocked only gated cars and F1 trans was special order would they still have sold 99% in F1?

 

good question ... not sure



Keep in mind that many of the lamenters here are preaching to the choir - I prefer manual myself - so I 100% agree with the desire for it, I just am realistic about the reality on the ground....and I must say driving a DCT can be extremely exhilarating as well.... so no need to poo poo anybody that has that transmission or even prefers it.

 

No one here is "poo pooing" DCT they/we/I are just expressing that we wish a 3-pedal was still available to someone spending $200K+ on what some believed to be the ultimate driving driving machine, nothing more nothing less.

 

There weren't any 430s in dealers' showrooms until the financial bust when all of a sudden Scuds were widely available for discounts. For the first few years, new 430s could be flipped for a profit and therein lies the problem. Dealers, of course, advised buyers to order what the customers who would pay the premium wanted i.e. paddles and LOTS of options. This didn't hurt dealers' profits either! I have often wondered what the paddle/stick ratio would have been had all the cars gone to end users in the first place. I do think the majority would have chosen paddles, but not 95%. As it is, there were people who wanted sticks but they never came. That said, I think Ferrari was already plotting to eliminate sticks. I put a deposit on a new 430 in 2002 and sweated it out as to whether they would offer a stick. Fortunately, I was the first one on the list for a stick. Some buyers who signed up later went empty handed.

Dave

 

Yet the Gt4 and 911R experiece is very different. GT4 sales doubled cayman takeup.

So we might deduce that ferrari underdeveloped the stick on the 430 and we know anecdotaly they and dealers discouraged its takeup. The cali takeup means zip, I hardley think a cali client is a stick person, that like asking who would buy a stick SL.

Reminds me of ordering my M3 without a sunroof. Acording tot he dealer there would be no resale and they never ordered one without it. So how many people have sunroofs they never use, or hardley ever, but its a sort of mandadory option. Yep nine is sans roof, all the racers want it.

 

Just curious, based on your driving experiences, aside from the gearbox, is the 458 Speciale or Speciale Aperta "visceral and raw"? I have driven the Lambos, McLarens, GT3..only ridden in a GT3RS.

The Speciale is much more raw than all but the GT3RS IMHO, but it's close! Aston's old N24 was raw, probably way too much for a normal road (i.e. it performs best on a smooth race track, while parked at a car show, or when talking about it in an online forum)

What about the Alfa 4C? (if it had the gearbox out of the Abarth perhaps?). To me it's a reinvented Lotus Exige with a more modern tub and gearbox. Fun. Just like a Spec Miata.

As for Porsche, it's important to consider the facts around their business. I think your facts and figures quoted might benefit from some additional research.

In 2014, in the US they shipped 47,000 cars; 17,000 were 911/Cayman/Boxster/918, but OF those cars, less than 10% were delivered with manual gearboxes (per Porsche AG). In 2015, sales are up, growth in Macan sales alone are bigger than all 911 sales.... It's not a "30% niche". More like 2-5% depending on how you define it.

First off, they have huge scale advantage and already have developed engine/gearbox combinations - so putting a manual into a Cayman is a lot cheaper (per incremental unit) than having to redevelop one.

Second, the "high end, enthusiast" niche of Porsche's market is about 5% of their volume. Don't forget, they make their volume money on Panamera, Cayenne, Macan and a host of comfortable (but very fun and nice) 911, Cayman and Boxster sales.

"Raw and Visceral" is a minority of their actual sales. A proven and vocal minority for sure, and profitable, but their business model "allows" it only as long as they are profitable at point of sale, and affordable to develop.

They can afford this right now as

1) they price accordingly, and charge more for less; it's a halo car range

2) they always - ALWAYS - leverage the R&D by either using existing architectures, or by launching new architectures that will have scale (aside from the 918, CGT projects)

3) they have enough solid known customer demand that they know they've "sold" the runs before committing production; in that regard, the Porsche customer base (the 2-3%) has stepped up and bought the stuff. ALL cars Porsche makes in this segment are "sold" - usually to end customers, but to the dealers (who like to add market adjustments).

For Ferrari (or, McLaren, Aston or Lambo even) to offer a (new) manual gearbox, they'd have to commit massive $ for development. Ferrari and Mc are small; Lambo even with VW AG behind it is still small.

Ferrari history going back to the 360 is, if given the choice, people took the F1. In early years, the F1 was a pricey option, too.

Would you be wiling to pay $15K more for the "optional manual gearbox"? that's probably what the cost would be, assuming at least 500 units a year.

Again, history and current Ferrari new car clients are voting "DCT". Of course there is a minority; in Ferrari's case it's probably a fraction of the 7,000 cars/year...in Porsche's case it's probably a smaller fraction overall.

Could they? Sure. Would they? I guess, if they had enough orders up front and pricing to pay for the development and manufacturing costs. So, seems like the easy path to this is to find enough people willing to buy 5,000 488 manual gearbox cars at a $15K or so premium over the DCT pricing. ((I'm guessing 1200/year over 5 years))

Will be curious to see what the Fiat 124 (i.e. the Fiat Miata) evolves into, and what (if anything) the mystery V6 "Dino" comes with. A 4C with the Alfa Giulia V6 would be fun; I'd bet it will have a DCT.....

 

I sometimes wish unicorns and leprechauns exist...It is what it is...Those with $$$ to afford these machines have voted with their wallets.

 

sorry, meant to include this chart as reference to production volumes referenced in my earlier post....

I'm also contemplating starting a new thread on handguns - "do real men shoot revolvers, and only poseurs shoot automatics? and why doesn't Sig Sauer make revolvers any more?" (kidding)
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I think the speciale, and avetador are both great. The aston N24 not really a road car. If one could actualy order a speciale, and if one could get one withou 100k in bs otions I would have bought one. So ferrari wnats sales, but does not want to sell cars.

As you say the porche numbers depend on how you stack them up. The suvs and 4 doors are an irrelevant number for our purposes. It all boils down to 911 and cayman boxter takeup in the sportscar segment.

What we see at porche is if you slap an inferior poor shifting stick(the 7 speed) on essentialy a Gt car the takeup rate is low. Same at BMW. Most 911s and boxters are pure Gt cars.

But in your hot raw model, the one for "drivers" a stick takeup can be very high 30% BMW M3/4, corvette.

More to the point if you dont necessarily offer transmsion choice, but a special "drivers" stick only model, developed with stick in mind, have a great transmsion(the 6 speed) you can get fantastic incremental sales growth of an existing platform. GT4 doubled cayman sales. the cayman GTs which was paddle barely moved the needle. the 997 Gt3s created incremental sales and a whole new 911 line.

So what could ferrari do with the 488 platform. If the new 488 speciale is going to be the high tech option, ferrari can also offer the purist version like lambo offers 2wd huricans, or porche now the Gt4 and 911R. the pourist version can be simplified lighter, and may offer a stick. The speciale was treated as arunout model, not really an additional one.

The 4c proves another point, you can sell reasonable numbers of high end raw cars.
You asked my opinion of the 4c, and they are all based on what i have read, from numerous sources as well as comments by two people I trust who have driven them..

The good, the car in the flesh(I have seen a few) looks great, and we all love the cf tub idea.

The bad, for what is such a minimalist car its not that light in USA. Untill there are aftermarket upgrades the motor is basicaly an aluminum block pedestrian econo car engine, maybe lotus gets away with that, but its sort of a sin in an Italian car. The paddles, dodge dart has the same tranny, btw a dart also has a manual so the transaxle exists.

But the real issue with the 4c, and nearly every rag says this as well as the people who I have spoken with. The handling is somehow off, especialy in comparsion with a cayman or lotus. Some attribute it to strut suspension flexing as opposed to wishbones. Why put struts on a stiff CF tub, you loose the benefit. In any event to make the car show handling numbers the suspesion is unusualy stiff, good handling cars need compiance.

So far I only ever saw one on a track, and lest say it was not being driven well.

the 4c looks the part, but dynamicaly its no lotus. Doesent seem compelling to me in terms of execution, but the spec was always aluring. Not fully cooked imo.

So yeah i woudl love to see a dino, utilising the 4c tub with wishbone suspension, great pinin bodywork, the alfa of masser TTv6 for under 200k. That to me sounds like the spec for a great raw car. Somethign ferrari maserati or Alfa could develop of an existing platform using existing hardware just like porche does.

Ferrari purist cars off existing platforms, if prche sees 30-505 incremnetal sales why not ferrari, you are essentialy creating an extra model of an existing one. If porche has fans for Gt4's and such you think Ferrari does not?

 

C'mon Entropy, real men only use rocket launchers and mini-guns...what the hell are you talking about? (revolvers...as if)

 

Maybe if they made a new design that was an electronic trigger that sent a firing request to a fcu (firing control unit?) which then sent a command to a solenoid actuated firing pin and was fed by a hydraulically powered magazine?

Sounds complicated!