This is another reason why non-racing Ferraris should have manual gearboxes.

Ha

 

Lets see cayman figures for 15 now that Gt4 included.

As to shooting. Well I am not a real shot, more like a paddle driver so easy function ans lots of bullets to bail me out is a priority.

That being said while my glock has numerous practical advantages over my old brownign hi power. The glock holds more rounds is lighter, easier to shoot, is ore rugged and reliable there is absolutely no question the browing is a more satisfying piece to hold shoot and just admire, its precsion of function and build set it apart.
One I woiull keep forever, the other is a tool.

Real me from what I hear shoot bolt action really really long distances, and are great with a 12 guage. Myself for long guns love the veper 308 ar and mini 14, which makes me a poseur paddle driver type shooter, thats ok.

 

Good one Spin Doctor.

 

Single action or double action revolvers???

 

Spin/Wagging the dog/smoke and mirrors (whatever you want to call it) alludes to some sort of fallacy - As I said, I sympathize and agree with manual transmission enthusiasts; that doesn't change the fact that the market has spoken.

One can complain all they want about the musical fidelity of vinyl, it doesn't change the fact that when you reach critical mass for another said format (digital) - that you're along for the ride for better or worse.

That's no spin, that's fact.

Criticizing folks that prefer digital over analog is as self-defeating as critiquing the majority of people (that have the money to regularly purchase these cars) for preferring DCT.

Same way I cringe when people harp on and on how the music industry has 'sold out' is 'out of touch' and 'no longer cares about enthusiasts' (sound familiar?) because they no longer issue vinyl analog formats....It quickly devolves to less about sincere music quality/experience - but more about beating your chest and peacocking your 'Audiophile bonafides' for preferring 'analog vinyl' ... all the more comedic since many of those trumpeting that viewpoint don't have the funds to purchase a Piveta amp in the first place..so ultimately a moot point and sadly in my opinion an exercise in sideline critique to cover up they aren't in the game in the first place.

 

The market hasn't really spoken on manual vs. DCT, at least not conclusively, since MT cars are going for absurd prices (modern ones)...because of the odd circularity of them being offered in smaller numbers due to lower demand (or a variety of factors cited already on availability etc).

Porsche is responding to try and capture at least some of this sentiment. Ferrari could as well, despite being lower volume, since they can easily price the added cost (and then some more) into the car prices.

It may be a temporary trend, or it may sustain itself for a longer period of time. We can't know yet. I do know that as someone who falls somewhere in the middle (I actually like attributes of both DCT and manual) I like having that option, even if antiquated. There are many good arguments to be made in support of them doing it for business reasons... and there is value in providing very high performance in a different manner than others. They already capitalize on this but I fear they are relying more and more on their brand itself.

As for music, there are many areas where old is indeed superior to new but not in a quantifiable manner. An old tube guitar amp does have a very different "feel" and sound than a modern digital equivalent. Despite the digital amps simulating tens of thousands of dollars worth of "vintage" and tube amps... You can quantify and say the digital is superior. But I can say that the process of making the music, and for the player (and in a live setting the audience) the old amps are superior.

I embrace technology (I'm sitting here wearing a link band Apple Watch) but in some areas, particularly in recreational ones, analog is simply more interesting, enjoyable, and engaging.

 

I'm not an audiophile but still can't see how this is correct.

An enthusiast can't truly prefer and enjoy vinyl without owning a Pivetta amp?

Isn't that similar to saying you aren't a true Ferrari enthusiast unless you commissioned a one off?

Anyway, what is the downside for Ferrari offering manual trans even if in small numbers? Development costs? This isn't a Kia, how could the lack of a wanted option on a Ferrari come down to "we didn't have the money".

 

Thanks INTMD8, the analogy is pertaining to those that bought a brand new 430/Cali choose 99 to 1 auto (if the above articles are accurate, they come from Automobile Magazine and Wired so I feel those are pretty reputable publication)

The gnashing of teeth is coming from secondary purchasers and sideline observers, as I said many times - not the primary customer of Ferrari - these folks have voted with their wallets.

If one demands X, but is *not* in the position of paying Y for it ... the whole thing is a moot point isn't it?

Of course I use Piveta as hyperbole to drive home the point. One can whine and complain for 'uncompromising' musical perfection, all the while not having the means to achieve it in the first place... What's the point?

Are there current Ferrari clientele that have the means AND want manual? I have zero doubt...but the sales #s and customer choice has showed they are unfortunately in the very small minority. Is this sad? Sure, but that is the reality in the showroom.

Now could there be a renaissance? Of course! As I said, you boys are preaching to the choir! I love manual transmission...but until I hear the GM of SV Ferrari start telling me that guys are coming and walking out once they hear no manual option - I fear that may be a unlikely scenario in the near future.

You called it..yes Development costs. If only 1% of your clientele is taking an option - yes the ROI is not there. Ferrari is not and has never been about plebeian desires. Like any business they will cater to *their* customer base on primary purchase. They are not Ariel Motor Company or Radical.

Tell you what, I have a cocktail reception today at Silicon Valley Ferrari, the GM (Charlie Miles) is a friend of mine (had him over to my house for parties multiple times) - I'll ask him how many new prospective Ferrari owners walk out/back out because they don't offer manual and report.

 

My intention was nothing more than lighthearted funny, no need to get all defensive aka peacocking.

 

sorry if you felt my description of audiophile snobs was implying you are an audiophile snob, not my intention. I actually have no clue if you are audiophile.

 

The secondary purchasers are the primary purchasers, or at least overlapping pool, which is what Porsche recognized. Some of the primary purchasers of Ferrari just want a cool badge and something flashy. You could put a full automatic transmission slushbox or even auto drive, and they would be buyers if the car had the badge and flash.

Porsche recognizes the opportunity here (to capture some of the $$ flowing to used cars with stick shifts). It is the only reason to reintroduce more manual cars into their lineup. The PDK system was easily the most advanced auto-manual when it came out, so not like they are tech laggards. The cars they are putting manuals (back) into are across the range, including direct competitors to Ferraris (yes, I fully consider a GT3 a 458/488 competitor).

Also, not sure where you get the idea that it is an ability to pay thing? Really don't see how that can be the case when manual 550s trade at silly prices. I do agree that many buyers of new cars are indeed just badge buyers, but there is a very sizable group of buyers who would like to see a MT offered.

Again, it could just be a near-term trend that will fade away along with the rest of the froth in this market, but Porsche's experience of late suggests that there may be some real money to be made in offering manual variants.

 

Actually I stole your great analogy "peacocking" and utilized it generally.

Just having have fun brother and trying not to be redundant.

 

As a related point, and variants of this have been posted countless times before, I think the way Ferrari can really hit volume without hurting brand (in fact, helping brand) is a $200k car that is:
1) ultra lightweight
2) ultra simple
3) driving oriented

It should also be beautiful. You can make this car stick shift, to save a bit of weight vs. DCT. You won't dilute the brand for the buyers of the V12/hybrid cars and you will capture some buyers who might otherwise shift loyalty to major competitors (Porsche).

Porsche is a real threat and if someone gets "into" that brand instead of Ferrari, they may very well stay there. That is a lot of future sales potential out the door.

 

1) ultra lightweight
2) ultra simple
3) driving oriented

Equals........................................................................................................................
A manual/3-pedal!

Remember the old saying "Don't try to fix what is not broken"?

 

uh..actually you didn't:

I must have hit a nerve if you felt my analogy targeted at faux audiophiles applied to you...

but since we're just having fun...

***

Elvis Costello and Burt Bacharach - what a couple sellouts. You would think two musicians that care about music so much, and know that fans love them would have made a 'real' and 'authentic' version of their awesome "Painted from Memory" album. I just think they are just so out of touch with their fan base. I mean so many people know just how much better vinyl is - for them to do this is just really ignoring the "true" music enthusiasts. They need to wake up and know they are losing fans like me*


*By the way, I don't plan on buying the album if they do release on Vinyl - I still have to buy a turntable, amp, speakers, pre-amp, DAC, cables, and power regulator..but they still are sellouts.

 

Explain the 2 articles then? Are they wrong with the 99 to 1 ratio? (maybe they are)

A Boxster/Cayman/base 911 is a very different target market than an F12/488. When Porsche starts offering a manual in a 918 or GT get back to me.

Does Ferrari plan to sell 7,000 550/575/599's next year? Last I checked, dealerships were in the business of selling 'new' cars first?

I don't disagree, but an avarage Boxster buyer is very different than a 488 buyer

 

I still believe that the demise of the manual trans was still mostly Ferrari's doing. If F1 is what they were building/pushing it's only natural that more will be sold.

Then blame it on the customer, self fulfilling prophecy. Oh well. Still love rowing gears in my old car, just can't stop wishing they would bring back 3 pedals.

 

It's called a Lotus Elise/Mazda Miata

 

I am not sure I follow your post. I don't need to explain the article, I agree with the stats.

As for the target market, Porsche market is wider. GT3 is in an overlapping market with Ferraris. The next one will have a manual. The limited edition 911R is also (in terms of buyer demographics) in that market.

As for selling 599s etc. Again, I don't follow your point. My point is that those cars are being purchased at very high price points due to MT / rarity. Ferrari can capitalize off this by selling some manual cars as new models. You will get two buyer types from this (the mix will be dependent on how Ferrari implements this): 1) buyers looking to buy low volume cars for collector status and 2) enthusiast buyers that want the interaction of a manual.

Then you introduce something about the average boxster buyer being different? True, though not sure how it relates to any of what I said? As for people who buy new 911s, the highest sellers are the S carreras, and they go for around $120k - $130+k as typically optioned. Turbos go for around $185 - $200k as typically optioned. Average buyer income I think is around $300-$400k. Lots of overlap with new Ferrari buyer demographics, except Ferrari buyers are at the median older.

Hey, I really don't care either way, but I do think there is a real market out there, at least for a short period of time. If we were talking purely numbers (for performance) then perhaps it makes no sense. But buying a Ferrari for the numbers makes no sense either, since a vette or GTR is going to be faster.

 

how is Lambo, Maserati, Bugatti, Porsche 911 Turbo/GT3 to be explained? Did they see what Ferrari is doing and said we have to do the same?

Why ignore the two articles I just posted that stated 99 out 100 F430 buyer's asked for F1? That only 1 customer wanted a Cali manual?

You may not like it, but them the facts.

Again, gentlemen - the market has spoken....with their wallets. I don't make a comment on if this is a good thing or bad thing, but to criticize the buyers (at worst) to being critical of Ferrari (at best) both accomplish....nothing

If you're an manual enthusiast...more power to you!! Not saying you shouldn't be.

This doesn't change the current landscape of New High-End exotic buyers overwhelmingly prefer DCT...it's not an opinion or lament or commendation - just a fact.

 

Or a GT4. Or a Noble.

A car similar to the Noble, but executed by Ferrari in today's market would be great, no? Would harken back to the F40 and Dino all at once.

 

What about the fact that Porsche decided to do an about-face and offer up some manual alternatives?

And this a German company, one where we can stereotype all we want about efficiency, practicality etc.

Yet they are the ones more attuned to the passion side of the equation, or at least that is what they can certainly promote themselves as doing...

 

I'm not ignoring the wired.com article, simply stating that if Ferrari was building/pushing F1 is it not likely they would sell more? Dave (sn Hardtop) was able to get one by ordering it quickly but others were not able to get one.

When is the last time Bugatti or Maserati had a manual? Porsche is bringing them back to meet demand. No idea on Lambo.

I don't care if the demand is low, Ferrari is a low production luxury as it is and I selfishly want them to make 3 pedal cars

Otherwise you're just reinforcing what I already know, that I need to either drive an old Ferrari or a new something else.

 

Excellent! This is a perfect example of what I"m saying - Some people here seem to want to have their cake and eat it too. Ferrari can't both ignore buyers and cater them at the same time. They went to automatic because new buyers were not demanding them. If the same thing happens to future Ferrari buyers..guess what will happen? That has always been my point.

You write this as if they didn't try this. Please either show some proof that Automobile Magazine and Wired are wrong (I will gladly reconsider my position if you do) otherwise you're quite frankly beating a dead prancing horse.

hmm...One new 488 or 2 base Carreras and a base Macan....yup - either one new 488 or 3 Porsches...

Heck even with Porsche's most expensive model (besides the 918 and GT I already mentioned *are* cross shopped) - the Turbo S cab, you can get 1 of those and a Cayman backup vs 1 488.

If we're talking about the aforementioned GT3, you can get 2 of em' and have some money left over vs 1 488

no doubt there is some overlap, but why do people keep talking in conjectures? The articles said a take rate of 1% for manual.

1% for the F430

Of course there is a real market out there in the secondary market. In the new? Well please read both articles I posted again before you respond. Can it change? no doubt...and lucky charms might add a new marshmallow to the mix tomorrow.

 

Okay, let me try this again.

The F430 was being sold back when 550 MT cars were going for $100k and there was no major premium for manuals.

The California is a poor comparison since it is more a cruiser and intended to capture a more casual driver market.

Clearly within the F430 market, it was a lot more than 1% of cars that were MT... the only way Wired can get to that stat is by lumping in the California.

It is like pointing to Porsche and saying that <1% of its cars that had manuals offered, had manuals selected, when we know the Cayenne and Panamera both had manuals offered... It is all about slicing and dicing the data.

Not to mention the incentives for the companies to push the car with the higher price / with the option (PDK was ~$6k-7k additional) cost.

Now, today, there is a resurgence of interest in MT in terms of willingness to pay, either for scarcity (again, a circular concept) or for the driver engagement. Some people moved to DCT and then realized it was boring for most of the casual driving they did, and prefer to move back to manual after trying it out for a bit.

I think people advocating for it are pointing out some very valid points that are being obfuscated by pointing to a couple stats that are backward looking and not entirely comparable or relevant.