This is another reason why non-racing Ferraris should have manual gearboxes.

...Strange

I don't think I was ever disrespectful, I answered all your challenges in good faith with point-blank answers. Yet it always comes to this, I ask you valid honest questions in return and you run.

I guess the crossfire happens because you always make claims that you never back up, and often strangely enough somehow circle back to supporting my original assertions.

It is what it is.

 

I'm a 8 track tape guy j/k

Nice post

 

The market spoke alright look at how much more $ 3 pedal cars cost,


I have both and it's all good either way

 

Yep. Market has ruled that 3 pedal Cars are the desirable ones. Some say thats due to scarcity which is true but even on porsches. There are much fewer autos on the older models yet they sell for wayy less than manuals so it's no entirely about production numbers.

 

Complete agree! Always have. Peruse the thread back a few pages..

 

Completely agree, just take a look at the Acura NSX auto vs manual. The topic morphed into if *NEW* buyers of say McLarens, Lambos, Ferrari are in a sizable enough minority to make the development have a positive ROI.

Super_Dave was adamant that I was either lying or wrong when I asserted buyers of *NEW* high-end exotics are shunning manuals. (I agreed it was sad, but it doesn't change the fact) This was made all the more odd, since he said he bought a McLaren (only comes with DCT) himself.. Strange way to prove (or should I say disprove your point?)

Here is a great article about Gallardo and New Huracan
Source: Why Lamborghini Trashed the Manual Transmission » AutoGuide.com News

I love this quote:

"Badgered about the lack of a manual by journalists during a tech session on the new Huracán at the automaker’s headquarters in Sant’Agata Bolognese last week, chief engineer Maurizio Reggiani brought up the fact that just five percent of Gallardo orders were for a manual. Mid-sentence, he was interrupted by company CEO Stephan Winkelmann who commented that the 5 percent statistic was ancient.

“Close to zero percent Gallardos were ordered in manual,” he said.

In fact, orders for a manual transmission were so few and far between admits Winkelman that every time one came in they had to go back and re-check the order form, confirming with the dealership that a mistake hadn’t been made."
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As one of the few people who successfully ordered a new F430 manual, I can say definitively that 1% is incorrect and I can similarly say with a fair amount of certainty that 5% is the correct number. This is what was repeated to me by FNA and my dealer at the time.

 

Thanks for chiming in Sherpa, yeah I think 5% seems fair....I would even believe 10%

Let's hope these numbers climb instead of following the opposite trend we've seen for many years now.

Cheers

 

Well, I don't mind a paddle car as long it has a lot of that rawness and feel that the old cars seem to have. That said, not one of my Ferraris came equipped with an F1 transmission. That's not coincidence.

 

I tried to toss some facts in a few pages back. Not sure it's worth it as this thread has become more religious.

If we're going to talk facts, statistics and be realistic about analysis....

1) scarcity in markets always increases prices, relative to where they were. In art or other markets (eg. Ferraris), it's somewhat multiplied. While there are some clear market-blowing unicorns out there (eg. manual 599's), important to note that 99% of these cars are still trading below what they sold for new. Factor in inflation, ownership costs to date...etc. Good that prices are "increasing", shows interest. My sense is that a lot of that inflation is due to "collectibility speculation", not because "the manual is better".

2) to try again on Porsche; while they DO sell manuals and the cars are awesome, if you take an economic view, for the moment they can both afford to do it, and they are also big enough that 5% of their volume CAN in fact derive a premium price and have a hardened core of buyers. The prices are higher 1) because the marketing department can and will charge more and 2) the bean counters will allow it as long as it covers the cost.

3) most of this conversation seems to focus on the most recent generation (F1, DCT) type gearboxes. If you rewind 12 years, the gearbox technology (in a 360, or "Tiptronic") was nowhere near as good as a DCT today. As such, manual vs. auto back then was a much bigger difference. The Tiptronic just sucked to drive, in manual or auto. (my opinion). The PDK is very different. The technical advance is what is driving more people towards the DCT option, plus the ultimate performance of the vehicle is better suited. There is (of course) an element that Ferrari always tries to incorporate the latest technology into their road cars, but for many that's part of the attraction of the cars (shall we talk about the fact that real men only use steel brakes, and ceramics are for poseurs?).

Just got back from picking up my daughter in the (manual) 355. It's getting cold here, took a few minutes for the gearbox to loosen up. Once it was, it was religious

 

Good post. In summary

1) Folks that actually devote time to call others poseurs for having anything but manual are projecting.
2) Everybody agrees manual transmissions are thrilling and great
3) 6 speeds command a premium in the secondary market for older cars
4) For NEW cars, a very small minority of buyers are demanding manual, so small that it has become a financially losing situation for most ultra high-end car manufacturers

Any questions?

 

Yes

Point 1, lots of poseurs come to sports cars because they can get autos, in the absenbce of autos or paddles there would be less poseurs and less cars sold.
Today whatw e call sp[orts cars are really just Gt cars that have sprts car paper specs for a few laps.

Point 4 is simply not true, unles you talk all cars.. For new sports cars as we se with the GT4 a manual can double sales. Now of course if you are talking all cars then there is close to zero demand for a manual, but then most new cars suck to drive so an auto fits right in with eps, a feature most drivers dont even notice even though in 98% of cars it worse than sucks to the point of being dangerous. And yes I know some cars have pretty decent eps systems.

As tot he lambo gallardo figures, that probably indiactes a lot about the lambo customer profile, and new ferrari profile too.


I do agree with sherpa that its not the transmsiion per se but the type of car, and to a certain extent there is a linkage, although we probably all agree the new aventador sv is very much the right type of car as is a speciale.

Clearly some people are threatened or dont like the idea manual still offered for whatever reason. Clearly it suits manufactuers economicaly and developmentaly not to have to offer a manual and so very few were offered. Equaly clearly in the high end sportscar segement, lets term them recreational driver cars, manufacturers are discovering a raw manual car niche which is economic and so in some limited segements manual are on the rise. Perhaps its not the transmsion but the concept of a drivers car, and to the extent its about drivers cars manual may dependign on drivetrain enhance or detract from the experience.

Lastly look at the rise of componant cars, a big part of this is componant cars offer the raw viceral drivign experiences moderns seem to lack, so there is a market to crack for oems.

Even the derieability of older cars like 308s and mondials indicates not rarity given the numbers produced but that the moderns lack something the older cars have. Imo the vette 30% manual cayman Gt4 100% mnaul and 50% of cayman sales, some mustangs camaros challengers still offer what older cars offer. Challegers are 60% manual, mustang Gt350 100%. So IU wouldnt call the manual dead or even dying, its a specific performance niche being served by specific cars whic are apprently well worth producing, which if you happen to be a keen driver placing an emphais on dynamics and experince find that these also happen to be the most appealing cars.

 

apologize again for attempting to bring logic into this argument....

The GT4 is selling well and likely will into next year. The claim of "doubled sales" is a bit exaggerated. Cayman and Boxster sales in the US are flat this year, though the Macan is up 200%. Automotive News publishes the actual sales-by-model every month, easy to track. (however, they do not track gearbox types or trim levels; that typically is discussed in earnings calls if at all).

Also need to consider the underlying basis - i.e. if Ferrari had sold TEN TIMES the number of manual shift Californias, they would have made 30....

Also, as I'm sure you are well aware, one reason Porsche was keeping the Cayman "underperforming" was to keep the 997, and newly launched 991, as the top-level performance car.

They relented on the Cayman for a few good business reasons - 1) competition in the sub-991 segment for performance cars is increasing 2) the new 991 has a price point that moved it up in category, so less chance of model overlap and 3) it captured an incremental niche (i.e. a better Cayman).

This is not my opinion, this is Porsche AG's publicly discussed product roadmap. A corollary is the GT4 Clubsport; Porsche refused for years to support anything "below" the 911, but the privateers were headed that way in a hurry, this way they can make a buck on it.

A wager I'd place is that if they provided a PDK version at the price point, it would end up being the prevailing choice all things being equal.

 

This is correct. And don't forget that Porsche has a huge scale so making special projects like this and cannibalizing the GT3 parts bin doesn't put the bottom line in jeopardy as it would with a smaller company.

Also, lets' not forget that the vast majority of Porsche sports cars are, in fact, sold in the PDK form. It's only because Porsche sells so many cars that something like the GT4 and 991R can be done.

 

cept they are also bringing amanual to the gt3 and we have the 911R.

Cayman sales did double while Gt4 was in production. Could a pdk version have done the same thing, well a GTs didnt move the needle.

as to macan sales they are irrelvant to the comparison with sprtscars other than to say proche has figured out how to get people to pay 50% more for a Vw with badges and a baffleflap exhaust and the Q5 is a better drive, kinda says a lot about most porche drivers. But yes the Gt4 shows there is a stilla core proche group.

Without the Gt3 and Gt3 and 991 cayman would proche really have the cred to seel so mnay macans and cayennes, methinks not.

 

The Gt4 and 911R and Gt3 fit in the cayman 991 niche, kinda like a more raw ferrari would fit in the 488 niche..If lambo can pull off a 2wd gallardo, then ferrari can pull of a more basic more raw 488.

 

Hence my very specific parameter "ultra high-end car manufacturers"

No doubt BMW, Porsche, GM, Ford still make manual transmission cars. But the GT4, as great a car as it is - does not quality to me as an 'utlra high-end car' - You can literally buy 3 of them and a macan for the price of of one 488

 

You speak of ultra high end, I guess that includes bently GT3. Ultra high end too often means expensive poseur spec.

I dont care about price or badge, to me its about the car being a sportscar, a drivers car, very few left regardless of transmision or price, but the usa at the end of the self drive car seems to be well represented finaly..

See below for a description of the dynamics and experience of adrivers car, which is applicable regardless of transmission. Can we say the same for a 488 brilliant as it is?

‘If you’re up for it, the GT4 thrives on being freed from any electronic intervention, because once you get truly dialled-in to its responses and balance, you can really attack through the turns. As you’d expect – and want – it’s beautifully neutral, with a hint of steadying understeer when you breach the limit. It gives you the confidence to push hard, but it also gives you the option to tweak the balance with a subtle lift of the throttle…from here you can delicately reintroduce the power to get the GT4 at a delicious phase where it seems to float, rear-end just beginning to slip, but only requiring the tiniest steering correction to balance..

 

Sean, you do realize that Porsche sells other cars to pay the bills, right? The cayenne and Macan are exactly what let's them sell manual cars for purists. The market has dictated that you cannot sell an entire line of Ferraris in manual. That said, they can make them more raw in limited runs, like the Speciale.

 

Oh I realise the economics. I also realise that ferrari sells cars for 300-350k where porche charges half that or less, so ferrari has more margin and lattitude within existin platforms. yes porche makes lots of $$ selling glitsed up vws, but the cayman and 991 lines are each a profit center on their own, including the limited prod ones.

Putting aside transmission its really a function of setup, and mostly ferrai doesent care, so being able to sell plenty of Gt focused performers..

I am a big speaciale fan, too bad they made so few. maybe next time it will be areal production item not a runout special with lots of extra charged for mandatory options just because.

Its a question of how ferrari gets to 10 k units from under 7. In Lucas day the intent was not to sell more cars and make obscene extra profits from 100k in options that cost maybe 5k to ad to the car. Now maybe they want more sales, that means either more platform which is relly expensive and unlikely, other than maybe somehtig n off a4c. More likely is more derivations off an existing platform as porche does with the 991 and to a lesser but expanding degree off the cayman. Its not really that relatively expnsive to do, you just need the will and to reckognise the market segment. Tapping into a mutitude of 991 segemnts off one platform is how porche sells so many. thse days its almost endless, carrra, carrera 4 4s targa convertibles in each variant turbo Gt3s etc.

To the extnt the platform exuistrs as say a 991 or 488 each limited prod varian seems to pay, 2k Gt3 3k spiders, so if ferrari added soem more variants thta each was a 2k run it seems to add up.

If porche could make money off of 2 k Gt4s utilising bits off a Gt3 and regular cayman, ferrari can ino add 2k units to 488 sales similarily by doing something raw but not necessarily uber tech like a speciale, somehting more driver as opposed to tracktime number orientated.

Lookk how many derivatiosn Maclaren does off the orig 12c tub and mechanicals, we have 650 now, 675lt, 570s and 540 comming, each pretty distinct and the 570 relatively inexpensive. Even aston has how many flavors of vantage?

Untill now imo ferrari just didnt care, the model as it was worked for their goals, now they want more sales ad those are not going to come from china. In fact slaes were reduced ayear ago to "maintain exclusivity" so how do thye grow sales off existing platforms, follow the porche model and appeal to a enthusiast core is one option, considering how well the serve the "other" segements already.

Apart from product derivatiosn it might also mean treating the customer and buyers like somehting better than poo.

Lastly a hard core machine is well fitting withing the ferrai ethos, this uber tech story is a luca development, ferraris other virtues in period were rarely uber tech, more like perfectly resolved cars with superlative motors and dramatic classy styling. Feerrai also never used to be F1 only, so if you are growing the brand as sportscars then inspiration can come from other areas.

While its a bit of an off topic tangent I can say that to me the laferrari is tech for its own sake, whereas the new ford Gt is intelligent application of tech, not only in terms of motor transmsiion and materials but also celarly in terms of aero, its clever light well thoght out car for a purpose, the form is origional purposeful and honest about intent, the la ferrari is more like we had unlimited budget and threw in everything but the kitchen sink because we could and people would buy it anyway. Laferrari reminds me of a movie sequel which while sucessful lacks the appeal of the origional due to exess budget and gimicks over true concept.

To me given the keys to only drive one or the other for a day it would be the ford hands down.

i am looking for ferrari to build not only great cars on paper and dramtic to look at, but great great cars to drive on road, fun for the street and track, while being classy in a way euprpeans do so well. the 458 imo go the F12, the C7 vette is the same styling language infinitley better and coherantly executed.

Still so may worship and buy ferraris because they are ferraris. Kinda like that line in rush where lauda calls the car a pice of crap ad the mechanic says cant say that, lauda asks why and the resposne is itsa ferrari.

But yeah, the CS was apprently great to drive but misse din looks, the scud moved the gae on and the speciale, to me the most appealing car they ahve made since the 288 because ilike that car t has the looks and dynamics. Now lest see more of that and allow the meerly well healed to buy them for lets say 350 k or less. And if the do somethign similar in a dino format for 200k even better.

When i was a kid the delta between what ferrari offered in a BBi and a vette was vast vast vast in every measure, now not so much. The answer cannot be just faster laptimes, as we see with superbikes at a certain point more paper perfomance becomes an irrelevancy.

 

I have read a great deal of this post. I am 43 now ,and have owned several manual and automatic cars. I have always loved manual gear boxes on sports cars. My f355 and Gallardo were manual gear boxes. I now have a 458 which I love. Maybe it’s because as I get older I enjoy not having to shift through the gears, I don't know. Anyway, I have worked very hard over the years and started a mechanical contracting business to own them.

The most serious thing right now that scares me is autonomous cars. This will be the end of our driving passion. Once insurance rates skyrocket forcing most people to serum to self-driving cars, we are in a world of hurt. It is a sad day when the digital world we have created over takes our infrastructure and independence.

 

Was pondering this thread today, and the above post brings a lot of things to the fore.

Whats happening is the art of driving, or driving as an art is being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. Today cars have blind sport warning and auto braking etc. The net result of nanies is drivers pay less attetion to the art of driving and more to texts etc. How many times does the light change and cars not move because people are using electronics. How little attention do most drivers pay, and how much less now thta they know the car will partialy or completly take care of the problems.

By way of analogy, the art of driving a ferrari is also being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator client. While the cars still can fake great sounds in an exagerated manner, and can certainly put down the numbers, in reality most are driven the same way as "normal" cars. The imputed performance styling and noise is a usp. But the eprformance is not really used by most.

The paddle transmision regardles of its performance is mostly used as an auto box. Remove the auto box and you probably narrow the bandwidth of people who would buy a ferrari significantly, and you certainly limit the cars uses to more of the eprformance recreational driving realm. So paddles allowed for a huge increase in sales.

Of course each new genration of ferraris is more honed to better serve the broad client base.

All of which is a reverse way of saying that paddles while great at performance also expaneded(along with some other features) the bandwidth of ferrari clients significantly. The cars are of course partly vision but also largely aimed at the tastes and use of the broad customer base. Therefore while they get objectively faster(as part of usp) they also become more isolated and Gt like as that better suits the broader customer base and its actual use.

Wheter ferrari chooses to design varaints to better appeal to groups outisde their broad(auto) customer base is for some an economic arguement. Persoanly I think they just have not bothered or cared so far, they sold all they wanted anyway, it was a good formula for 7k global sales. But in the next era they will need to better serve other segments(as opposed to partialy serve) if they want to get to 10k units. Since they are unlikely to build a suv or 4 door, that leaves more hard core, and smaller lighter(dino) Segements within sportscars, all well within the ferrari ethos.

So personaly i htink invcreasing production will be great for product variants and soem of those may well be the type of car betetr suited tot he more hard core recreational driver. Somehtign really fun on street at below beserk speeds, and soemhtign that can hang and hold up on the track. In short a sublime driving experience, even if its a little slower than the tech heaver more user friends models.

 

I honestly think that all of those cars are made already and it's up to us to go out and acquire them, if we have not already.

A high performance manufacturer like Ferrari is not going to make a "slower" car. Not in this age of youtube drag race videos, internet comparisons, etc. They're just not going to do that. Roads aren't getting better at the pace of cars. If you want something like what you described, it's already been made.

I drove a 488 a few months ago. The representative from Ferrari was like, "you have an F40, floor it. See what this thing has." It took me three attempts before I had the confidence to put my foot down all the way in 3rd gear. These cars today are just so freaking fast. They just can't be used properly on public roads, hence all the nannies and the "dumbed down" and numbed up driving experience.

I'm at peace with that. But then again, I think that I bought the best cars for me already.

 

Questions yes just one...

How do I make lots of money with little time, seed money, effort or intelligence ?



Seriously... new Ferrari buyers and "enthusiasts" are typically in different sub sets.
The only F1 Ferraris I have a real interest are the race-cars-for-the-street; 360CS, Scud etc

 

Ferrari did make a new model slower car than all their others its called a cali, I guess they just saw a market niche there. Different niche to enthisiasts, but ferrari saw no harm in creating slower and in this case heavier poorer handling car.


They also made a 458 that was slower than a F12 which was fair enough as thye are dfferent segments. So no problem with different segements then, although in this case its different product ranges.

Even in the 458 range they then made a speciuale and a regular 458 at the same time one faster than the other.


Yes I agree the new cars are so fast they need nannies, so its speed for it own sake, and like superbikes at a certain point it becomes pointless. Now of course you dont have to use all the power anyway. But here is the problem, on these new cars they only become entertaining when all the power is being used, somehting we cant really do on the road.

What Mclaren found is that the effect of making a car useable and getting best possible lap times, means you end up with a car that is toyota easy at slow speeds and toyota entertaining at slow speeds(ie street speeds), and that to be enetrtaining it has to be at 9/10th or higher, which are unatainble road speeds 650s. Yet if you dial it back like the 570s the car becomes far more entertaining to drive at all speeds, for a somewhat irrelevant drop in ultimate laptimes.

If you look at the Gt4, the emphasis is not on comfort, its on chasis dymanics , feedback of all types including shift feel and a really good motor tranny combo.

As we see in superbikes some where in the last decade they got so good that now more speed for its own sake is pointless in any road context, or even on track, but yes it sells to the those who dont necessarily use it but derive pleasure from having the potential.

Do any of us here think that the lesser speed of the 570s is in any way relevant on road, and to the extent one tracks the car, given that these are street cars is the fractional difference relvant on track. But the price paid in driving entertainment value for that fractional performance gain is very relevant.

Do we not buy these cars for entertainment value, either driving entertainment or posing entertainment?

Yes companies always seek to go faster. But its not the 1960s anymore, there are not ulitmate benchmarks to break. If you car can go 200 is a newer one that can do 210 of any relevance, or is 200 a benchmark that does not need to be exceeded. Is 0-60 in 2.8 better than 3 secs. Not if these higher specs are at the expense of feedback and driving entrtainemnt at 70 mph. Ferarris latest musings seem to say the same thing.

One of the reasons classic aircooled 911s sell for so much is that they offer something the new cars dont, and its not just that they are antique. They are reliable and useable on one hand , but the enphasis is on driving entertainment over outright speed. Its the same reason(not the only reason) we see componant cars, recreations and even demand for 308s(ie not just classic status, but irreplaceable driving experince).

Not every one wants an old car/collectable, but many seem to want elements of the driving experience they offer. Newer cars, ferrari in this instance dont offer this because of the pursuit of ultimate speed spec for its own sake and comfort useability a lot gets lost. Thats the brilliance of the GT4, or the rumored 911R, slightly slower, but way way more relevant and entertaining for the 20-30% of sportscar buyers who really do care, its also why it sold so well for the one model year when it represented 50% of cayman sales.

Given the choice of the faster "better" 488 or the slower rougher F40 for a day, my guess is for many of us the F40 would be the choice.

Given the choice between a Maclaren F1 or the P1 for a day i know for me its F1 all the way.

These 4 are all fast cars, faster than we are going on street or track, but two of them are infintely more engaging and entertaining to drive either on track or road.

True the market is not as big for raw cars as for the current crop of really fast Gts, but 30% extra sales is nothing to sneeze at, especialy when its developed off existing platforms.

Interesting if the Alfa Gulia is developed at 510hp with a stick, then the drivetrain is there for the taking.

This is what I did for almost 458 money to get what I wanted, and that is after extesively test driving a458 and Mp12.The ford is very limited because of its tech and focus, so something modern could have covered more bases for me esp on street, but my emphasis was not to compromise on another really fast but dull and unuesable street car so I was prepared to pay the price. Still if ferrari offer 288 experience in modern package, like say porche did with the 997Gt3, that would have been my choice. Maybe the speciale comes close, but ferrari as is their way didnt really sell these cars to people who were anythign but "collectors" who were of the flipper class. The speciale was potentialy great, not really for drivers who wanted one for driving then. So i have hope that in the futire ferrari will build somehtingcloser to my ideal, and actualy sell one tot his longtime ferrari owner.
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