Has anyone noticed......

The Speciale is maybe the most track day fun that Ferrari will ever build. The rear end here is a new feel and the extra power isn't really needed over the F12, which has plenty for anyone. So it's maybe a bit luke warm for good reason. All sold. All sold to people with more money than any reviewer. etc.

Many people don't like the FF, I think it's the best highway car ever made. And beautiful.

Reviews are more about the reviewer than the car, or the long term market.

 

From another thead ... on the long game:

 

I think it time it could well be considered a great, but I suspect too early to draw a conclusion yet.

They built this car to be more difficult to drive than a flattering 458, much more demanding, making it inherently unstable like modern fighters before using the electronics to bring it back into line. Thus being more demanding it is going to take more time than the journalists were given on the test day. They had a very brief 4 laps of a cold Fiorano and under pressure to max it for their reports and photographers, all the nannies off, and went for it, 780 HP on cold tyres. Not apparently what this car needs unless you are the likes of Vettel and he clearly was by impressed, but then he has the talent to immediately explore it and has probably had more time with the car.

Ferrari believe they have created something special here or trust me they would not have released it as the ultimate V12 evolution and listening to Raffaeles remarks, he clearly thinks so too. Some reviews seem to agree, especially US publications, but I think we need to wait until someone like Chris Harris has the car for a sensible amount of time before drawing more of an opinion. Hopefully that will be soon.

My money says, literally, this is something very special.

 

Agreed. This is how Ferrari does their V8s and V12s. Notice the 458 and 488 have near universal praise yet the F12 while generates high praise, it isn't quite as universal. There are more quips etc. Rather than compare V8 to V12 you have to look at them as complimentary.

 

To be clear, you are speaking of the tdf as opposed to the Berlinetta as the latter certainly is one of the most universally praised Ferraris. The tdf is just getting out there and we will have to see. LE cars are scrutinized differently. It was disadvantaged over the whole naming thing due to politics before it was even built. However, IMO the 488 you mention has had the least universal praise of any recent follow-on car due to the turbo controversy. I do agree V8s and V12s should not be compared.

 

Tend to agree. It's like music that is new. Takes a few listens.

Or a stock that rises fast can fall, you want the slow growth.


The 488 may even fade as this rises over time. Different curve. I don't see people selling their 458 or Speciale in huge numbers to get the 488. Spider out so soon. Slow take up I bet. 458 Aperta prices through the roof.

 

I'd like to think I'm neutral as I currently own among others 458S, 458 SA, 599 GTO and I have a TDF on order. IMHO, my finest performance car package is the Speciale coupe. It's not soft, or softened, it's perfect. Better to drive even than the Aperta, which is why I can't sell my coupe. Far more balanced/agile than the GTO, which is a wonderful brute. I guess the reason journos stepped in a Speciale and loved it from the get-go is because it's the perfect package. Does that bother me per the TDF? Nope. If my GTO is a brute, I expect my TDF to be a real handful and that's very exciting. That's what I find glorious about Ferrari, each car hits a different spot on the performance spider chart. The expression of performance brilliantly tweaked for a particular role/segment. But for me the Speciale coupe sits almost dead centre on the hypothetical chart, and I'm not surprised to see the coupe's values in the UK moving firmly north.

 

As JackCongo has pointed out on another thread, Laurent Chevalier would clearly give it 5 stars, assuming a)you can understand French and b) I can!


FERRARI F12 TDF ESSAI VIDEO EXCLUSIF SPORT AUTO

 

I agree with Camlet. The Speciale is a bit freakish really, almost perfect and by a way the best car I have ever driven. I remember when the 599 GTO first came out, around the same time as the 458. Not that Top Gear is the final arbiter on these issues any more but their conclusion was that the 458 was a brilliantly balanced and approachable car but Clarkson nicknamed the GTO 'Kato'! He couldn't get a laptime out of it but it was much better in the hands of the Stig. So, I think Ferrari's philosophy is to make the sporting V12 something like the pinnacle in terms of challenge for the gentleman driver.

The V8s have their layout derived much more from the F1 racing formula of today, whereas the front engined V12 layout is from the day when Enzo himself went racing and people like Moss and Fangio were around, driving impossibly implausible machines at incredible speeds, with a very large degree of bravery. If it is the founder who gets to say what Ferrari is really about, then it is this era which I imagine he would refer to. Ferrari and super fast, highly strung, difficult to drive V12s go hand in hand. It is the beginning of Ferrari and a key part of the DNA.

In a world where time is more and more precious and we want immediate results, the V8 line and its competitors probably do exactly the right job. But for those 'gentlemen and women' who wish to spend the extra time to delve a little deeper, there is perhaps no substitute for mastering a tightly wound front engined V12, just like Stirling or Juan.

And if you think that's a load of rubbish, then how about "of course it's brilliant, it blows tyre smoke through it's wheelarches!" 😎

 

Spoken with passion. Well done. All holds true for street cars. For racing, however, you just don't want a vehicle that's hard to drive fast. The return you get from racing is to win and you don't want to work harder than the other racers to achieve it.

 

Camlet his nail on head as usual. The FF is absolutely fantastic.

 

Yes, I agree. Perhaps there is a trade-off though. A large engined car is better with the weight at the front (maybe) and so your choice is a smaller engined, well balanced, mid car or a more powerful, larger engined front car. The TDF is supposedly quicker around a track than a Speciale, although when I went to Fiorano I was much quicker in a Speciale than an F12, which itself is supposedly quicker around Fiorano.

The official F12 lap could be just marketing, but I was an average three to four seconds slower in the F12. Point being that there is laptime to be had with the big 12s but you need to know how to get the power down with that unladen rear end, in other words, there is a point to being able to master a TDF over, say, a Speciale, in terms of speed?

 

No. I was talking about F12berlinetta. While it has received much praised- and well deserved- the praise when compared to 458Italia is not quite as universal.

Like I said, its how they do their V12 cars vs V8s. I don't think you should look at them as competing- rather the V12 and V8 compliment each other. That gives you the full experience

As to racing, yes, faster = best. But have you tried to drive an F1 car? Most of us would be crying at what's required to get it to move. The level of performance they have achieved and the interaction required to achieve it with the F12tdf is truly extraordinary.

 

Well for those that rate Chris Harris, after driving Speciale and standard F12:

'But if there was an F12 at the other end of the car park, I’d walk straight past the(Speciale) V8 to drive it. I should duck when I say this, but it’s the best car Maranello has ever made.'

Be very interesting to hear what he has to say shortly.....

 

CAERULEUS - I think we are talking around each other. The F12 is Ferrari's flagship and has received overwhelming praise as such and whose competition in cost and NA performance is primarily the Aventador. Nothing to do with the 458 which is a superb mid-engine V8 who has also seen overwhelming praise in its category. Never seen a journalist do a video review of the two as competitors.

With respect to racing, my experience is of the two wheel variety. When the new vehicles come out, the one that is faster but too hard to race fast without a bunch of mods gets poor reviews and does not sell. Most want a neutral vehicle with tons of power (or easily increased) so it is an extension of you and not the other way around.

Street cars - especially exotics - I'm not sure lap times mean much at all. So much goes into the ownership experience that I think its highly personal. Many enthusiasts now seem to want to go back to very light cars with smaller motors. I will always be a HP and a front NA engine V12 Ferrari junkie so the F12 and its variants are the best of breed for me.

 

There used to be a video here but seems to have disappeared....

https://grrc.goodwood.com/road/drives-and-rides/458-speciale-or-12-chris-harris-reviews#rq5mW41tKQiPEvQz.97

 

I do remember this. Leave it to Harris to be the one. He definitely compares the two and then doubles down on the F12 above ALL other Ferraris. This was just before the tdf naming fiasco so it should be an epic review with a lot more enthusiasm than what he did for the 488.

 

Looks of the 488 aren't helping it.

 

TDF of course has weight and power over standard car, but also 4WS; can make a significant difference.

 

Romans had one recently, now gone. I guess in the current climate somewhere in the mid 5's to mid 6's depending on motivation of seller.

 

you are spot on.. the mid engine V8s cannot be compared to the Front engine V12s.. Which ones best ?........both but in different ways.. I find it interesting that you found the 458S to be better driver then the 458a...... Very similar to the general thought of the 430 scud vs 16M...
I am not on the list for the TDF but I will be in the hunt for one I enjoy my F12 and feel the TDF would be a very nice addition...
best