Mercedes seek clarification from the FIA about Ferrari/Haas

The BBC have just announced during FP3 that Mercedes have gone to the FIA to "seek clarification" about what information is allowed to be shared with customer teams, querying Ferrari's relationship with Hass F1 and asking the FIA to look into what information has been shared between the two parties and if any rules have been broken.

Their claim centres on the fact that Ferrari's improved performance has been achieved at the same time as Haas using Ferrari's wind tunnel and they believe Ferrari have been making use of the Haas wind tunnel aero data to improve their own car, gaining an unfair advantage over their rivals, rather than it just being a coincidence.

They've been very clever to avoid directly accusing Ferrari of cheating by simply asking for "clarification" about the information that can be shared, but essentially the implication they are making is that Ferrari are breaching the rules on data sharing and wind tunnel usage.

The FIA have apparently told the stewards at Abu Dhabi to make a ruling about what information can be shared and if Ferrari have breached any regulations.

(TBH, I can't see how the stewards in Abu Dhabi can have enough information about the situation to make any sort of definitive ruling)


Querying this at the last race of of the season to Me says that they are getting a bit nervous as to how fast Ferrari are gaining on them, have some serious concerns for 2016 and are desperately trying to clip Ferrari's wings.

It also seems strange that Mercedes have brought this up again as this very same situation was already investigated by the FIA earlier on in the season and Ferrari were cleared of any wrong doing.

 

Very interesting...but Ferrari don't seem to be making any gains on them?

 

Shell is saying their fuel is responsible for a big part of Ferrari's performance. That said mb is starting to feel some heat so maybe they can throw together another illegal tire test like they did in 2013...

 

I see you've been paying as much attention as usual!

Australia 2015:

1 Lewis Hamilton GBR Mercedes 1:31:54.067
2 Nico Rosberg GER Mercedes +1.360s
3 Sebastian Vettel GER Ferrari +34.523s



Brazil 2015:

1 Nico Rosberg GER Mercedes 1:31:09.090
2 Lewis Hamilton GBR Mercedes +7.756s
3 Sebastian Vettel GER Ferrari +14.244s


Just about everyone in F1 have recognised and acknowledged that Ferrari have made great inroads into Mercedes' advantage in races (not so much in qualifying though! ), through a combination of engine development/fuel & lubrication development and aero development, but if you know better than they do, perhaps you should go and educate them as to how they are all wrong!

 

good data!!

except with the way racing goes these days, being a lot in cruise mode, it's got to be pretty hard to know those numbers are significant in the way you're demonstrating.

 

Yet the quoting continues....

Yes & no; Certainly understand what you're getting at, but I still think they push as much as they can most of the time; This pushing may be tailored by gas/tire saving, but as noted, it does seem Ferrari are indeed closing the gap; Maybe fancy go-juice, maybe better ERS, but the gap definitely seems to be closing IMO.

 

I hope you're both right

 

Exactly

 

Are teams not allowed to catch up to Mercedes then? Would love to see the contract they have for a definitive period of dominance with no challenge, otherwise, what do they expect, everyone to bend over for them? Mercedes are morons

 

Ouch!

In fairness, they may have a point; if Ferrari are using Haas tunnel data they're clearly "bending the rules", if not outright cheating.

 

I don't think Ferrari is bending any rules. If it's allowed to share data with Haas, then there is no rule breaking. The fact that Mercedes is worrying.. It makes me happy.

 

The strange thing is that they're complaining now, they should have done it already in January. If Ferrari has been smuggling data from Haas, the harm is already done.

 

There's the many million $ Q; I may be wrong, but I believe sharing data (be it track or tunnel/CFD/etc) with other teams is explicitly banned.

We know the FIA went and had a little look at the Ferrari tunnel a few months back & decided everything was legit. Not sure why Merc appear to be raising the issue again?

+1 No argument from me there!

 

Back in January Haas had no data!....... AFAIK, the FIA already checked it out & concluded everything was within the rules. Now, maybe the rules need 'clarifying' as Charlie likes to say, but I can't help thinking they're 'pushing the limits'.

As they should of course!

I'd go with the other way round; Ferrari are 'pointing' Haas in the right directions. Don't see any reason why Ferrari would need to 'smuggle' data from the children..... It's getting twice the tunnel time that's Mercs concern - and I believe that's a legit concern.

 

Yup, and if you recall the FIA pulled the fuel and oil from Ferrari at one point in the season to test it and it checked out.

 

Honestly I don't see how they can't use the data. If you have the same engineers/operators in the tunnel, they can't "unlearn" things they find at any given point in testing. If Haas tries something Ferrari has not and it does or does not work, that info is in someone's brain at Ferrari.

 

If you aren't cheating you aren't trying ; )

...or so I've been told.

 

But the Ferrari-Haas arrangement is known since mid 2014 or so.

A German magazine said a few months ago that the contracts of many Haas aero guys expired at the end of 2015 and that they would be hired by Ferrari then. As you said, it's not that they're getting data from Haas but they can't unlearn what has been learnt.

Honestly, this probably is within the rules, but it's totally against the spirit of the rule. They should do something to avoid it or everybody will try to have "satellite" teams soon.

 

Which would beg the question - is that a bad thing? It would certainly fill up the grid and five more seats to many talented drivers with little or no shot in F1 currently.

 

I had the same thought when I finished typing my previous post.

It would have pros and cons, no doubt.

 

For sure, but I'd rather have more problems AND more cars : )

 

How does the Red Bull / Toro Rossa deal work?

 

Again, I could be wrong, but believe it was exactly this 'issue' that the FIA looked at when they visited; Supposedly, they're running it very much like Toyota runs their Munich tunnel; each team has separate storage for their models and separate staff etc. The 'puters are all fire walled and so on.

At least that's the theory....

+1

Supposedly completely separate..... They too were 'investigated' a few years back for sharing too much info and got their wrists slapped IIRC. (This was more to do with STR using 'old' RBR chassis rather than aero, but the principles remain the same.)

 

Well, if a team is doubling its tunnel time by using the allocation of another team on top of its own, that could be interpreted as cheating.

There is hardly any point in imposing a time limit, if you can ignore it.

I think Mercedes has a very valid point is asking clarification.

 

In an ideal world, to deserve the title of CONSTRUCTOR, a team should be able to design and build its own chassis, engine and gearbox, also own its own wind tunnel and share nothing with any other team.

Don't you agree?

I think only Ferrari and BRM satisfied thesse criteria. All the others are just glorified "garagista".


PS: I don't think BRM ever used a wind tunnel. Happy days then ...