WARNING E271DPK 328 GTB UK Registered 75301

Hi all,
I know the Ferrari market is a bit frenetic and overpriced at the moment, just a quick heads up about this car
The car is Rosso over Black with red carpets with the specific details as above Red over black with red carpets last 5 numbers 75301 .
I recently sold this car (that I have owned) for the past 21 years to a well known UK Specialist, for a price I was reasonably happy with, Considering its history and condition.
The day after the sale I went to my bank to pay off a fair proportion of a personal lone that I have with them. they informed me that the lone I had, was secured on the car and when I signed the lone agreement, the ownership of the car transferred to them. ( by the way I am not totally thick, the lone was taken out in France, the contract was in French governed by French /European Law, with all the incumbent language difficulties). and I had to pay off the whole outstanding amount (that I don't have and cannot raise, or return the car to France.
I contacted the buyer that day and explained the situation, he told me that he did not want a car with outstanding finance on it and required the money he paid for the car to be returned and I was to make arrangements to collect it.( I have an audio file of this conversation) I offered to pay his expenses incurred to view the car and transport it back to the UK. all this I did that day, he received the money the next working day. Then the problems started. He would not take my calls (20+) or respond to my emails, so I contacted the UK Police and they kindly paid him a visit, the money came back within 2 hours. The Police informed me that he had indicated that he said that he was keeping the car and he was not concerned about the outstanding finance as it was not in the UK and would not show up on any HPI or other financial checks within the UK.That is the current situation.
Now for all you cynical people, wondering about my motivation. it is :-
1. I owe my bank more than I have and the only to resolve the situation is to get the car back.
2. To prevent an innocent third party buying the car and harming themselves and complicating the situation still further.
Any legal bods ect out there feel welcome to chip in.
And if any one finds themselves with problems associated with the subsequent sale/purchase of the car, they are more than welcome to private message me and I will provide the details and relevant documentation.
Many thanks
Sorry for the long post

 

If he paid you the money for the car why haven't you just paid off the finance?

 

I'd get legal advice, not sure about France but in the UK your breaking the law selling a car which has outstanding finance.

 

It's not only against the law in France, it is impossible: to sell a car you have to produce an official PROOF that there is no outstanding finance on it: the "certificat de non-gage".

Of course it has to be mitigated by the fact that some loans are not necessarly tied to the car you buy: they might be considered as a "personal loan" (in french, "credit non-affecté"), very often the case when you are financing only part of the buy and bring some other part in cash.
When you buy a car from new with financing from the car constructor (i.e, FIAT finance, BMW finance, whatever...) then the loan is tied to the car ("crédit affecté").
In the first case, you might be able to sell the car even if you had borrowed some money to buy it, and still owe some to the bank.

I must say that the only possibility I see is that the loan in question was in fact not used to buy the car, as the Original Poster says he had the car for more than twenty years, and no bank in France would loan you money for a car on more than five years.
It seems to me that the car was used as a kind of "collateral" to secure another loan, if my understanding is correct? But even this would be rather unusual for a french bank.

Rgds

 

Strange law.
If you finance a car in Germany, the paperwork, the vehicle title, whatever it's called in other countries, you have to deposit on the bank.
The registration papers which are proof of ownership, but don't have to be carried with the car, are out of reach as long as the loan isn't paid off.
Means one cannot sell a financed car without informing the bank.
Is this so much different in France or other EU countries?

What we really need are wise rules all over the EU. German authorities know about every Euro, one has on a french bank. But one can sell a financed car from France to UK without problems? That's abstruse.

But instead of such rules, which everyone figures out, they regulate banana curvature radiuses and currently work on mandatory emission values for candles ( no joke ).

Best Regards
Martin

 

Martin,

As told above, I do not think that this car has be "financed" by a french bank.
1. The owner says he had the car for more than twenty years, so it would have been repaid for a long time: banks are usually limiting financement of cars to five-years loans maximum.
2. You could not sell it here if it is still under finance by a bank: you would not get the "certificat de non-gage", so the sale would be impossible.
3. if it has not be financed by the bank as a specific "car financement", but under a standard, general loan (as most second-hand cars would be), it would mean that the owner has brought some money in cash (financing integrally would mean: "car financement" and almost certainly brand new car) so the sale of the car would be sufficient to repay the loan, which, according to what the original poster says, is not the case.

It seems very probable to me that the car has in fact been used as some form of "guarantee" or "collateral" for a much larger loan, but this is certainly not customary here.

Rgds

 

The problem is that according to German law you can bribe a judge to get off a bribery charge (see Bernie Eccleston) so it's hard to convince the British people that we should adopt your laws rather than you adopting ours.

In the UK if you sell something that doesn't belong to you and the person buying it knows or should have reasonably known that it didn't belong to the seller, the buyer doesn't own it and it can be reclaimed by the real owner. After (I think) 6 years it can no longer be claimed back anyway.

So given that it's a UK registered car in the UK and no UK check would show up the charge against it by the French bank, I doubt the new owner has much to worry about. Of course, if he drives it to France and the terrorism alert is low that day, who knows what might happen ...

Note, IANAL so the above may not be completely accurate.

 

I'm glad I live in the USA

 

this !

maybe the case here, Bruno ... but even then, in Germany the loan is treated like a mortgage ... and the certificate of ownership has to be deposited with the financing bank - as Martin says above: in Germany a sale would be impossible, no matter what

well, Patrick ... it was not that simple ... and you know it

.

 

Well your legal system is heavily based on our legal system ...

 

Umm what we do here in HK. If the car is a collateral for any loan, the vehicle registration document (UK V5 paper) will be with the bank. Without that you simply cannot sell the car or the car cannot be re-registered by someone else. So the situation described by OP will not happen.

 

So what happens if you own the car and you loose the document? Surely you just apply for a replacement and then you can sell it?

In the UK the V5 has the details of the registered keeper, which doesn't have to be the owner. The owner is not specified on the V5. The registered keeper gets all the speeding and parking tickets etc, so the bank wouldn't want to be one. The registered keeper can transfer the document to a new registered keeper. You can buy a car without the V5 and apply to be the new registered keeper, but its a bit of a red flag unless you are sure the car's ownership is not disputed.

 

It sounds like the revenue for the sale is not enough to satisfy the outstanding Lien balance.

That would be the case on any new car purchased and sold quickly, but it IS unusual on an older Ferrrari.

The OP should pony up the rest of the cash to retire the Lien, or send the bank after the new owner with a Repossession Order (which will trigger all KINDs of lawsuits, one would imagine!)

 

Sounds like the "Buyer" may have been in the process of flipping the car when you contacted him and suddenly started avoiding you. I believe you did the right thing by taking the high road in this situation and wish you well in getting things resolved.

 

Yes you can do that but that's no different from steal if it's a collateral. A bit different from the situation here I think.

 

Well Michael...remember that I am still quite familiar with some of the german laws, because we kept quite a few in Alsace-Moselle; actually some german laws are still in force today, notably on hunting, land registration, etc...even the trains are still using the "wrong" side of the track (the german one, not the british one as in "inside France", as we use to say).
I like to remind a few of my french friends from time to time that my two grand-fathers are my two grand-mothers, all being born between 1871 and 1918, were actually and legally born germans.

But back to the topic in hand: I am "quite familiar" with loans and banks, but I just don't understand how a car that has been in the possession of the owner for 21 years might have been collateral to a loan; it sounds really strange to me.

Rgds

 

It's actually very simple: it is just a question of perspective; I have to work with different legal systems, and they actually reflect a way of living and customs that are hundreds years of age. This explains that you feel perfectly at ease with your legal system, because it suits your way of living, and slightly puzzled with those that are differents.
I for myself wouldn't trade the french one for any other because I know it rather well, and I feel that on many question it protects my interests better: this probably because it has been build to suit our way of living, our customs, etc...

In the topic at hand, I'm still slightly at loss to understand how a car owned by the same person for 20 years could be collateral for a loan: this seems very unusual to me.

Rgds

 

I am not suggesting the OP's situation is deliberate, but I'm pointing out that even if the bank holds the document it's still really quite easy to sell the car to an unknowing buyer.

 

Not so easy in Germany and clearly fraud with big chances of being caught early in the criminal process:

Before the licensing office issues the replacement title document, the lost title is summoned up ( the lost title document is reported to the Federal Office / transportation central register in Flensburg and released from there in a document called 'Verkehrsblatt', maybe translated to 'journal of transportation' . In this way, all those who may have the vehicle title (eg banks, leasing companies , dealers , etc. ) , due to the publication in the Journal of Transport, may object to the issuing of the replacement document within 14 days if they are in possession of the vehicle registration itself.

Best Regards
Martin

 

Hi All
I have sought and revived, legal advice from a firm of Avocats, Camus ( a firm of French layers/barristers in UK terms) in Angouleme, here in France. Having examined the documents from my bank and appraised themselves of the circumstances, they advised me that the definitive position under French Law is as follows :-
The contract I signed with the UK Ferrari specialist, at my home address, to sell the car to him, is null and void. For these reasons.
1. “ The owner of the car (my bank) was not party to the car sales contract contract, negotiated and signed in France”.
2. “ The outstanding finance on the car, could and should, have been discovered by the buyer in advance of the contract being sighed in France”.
3. “The ownership of the car will remain with my bank until such time as the lone is paid off, in full”
4. “ When the lone is paid off in full, the ownership of the car will revert to me”.

“I have committed a crime, in selling a car in France that has outstanding finance on it without telling the buyer in advance” ( he told me that I was unlikely to be pursued for this because the bank would not make a formal complaint, as long I kept up the payments, as a successful prosecution was
liable to effect my ability to continue to make those payments”

The practical effect of all this, is that the car remains in the ownership of my bank, until the lone is paid off in full. When the lone is paid off the car will revert to my ownership.
The UK Ferrari specialist that has the car con not legally sell it or keep as he does not own it and there is no legitimate contract for him to exercise a traders lien over it.
I am not sure if I am comforted or more concerned.

 

Hi All
I have sought and revived, legal advice from a firm of Avocats, Camus ( a firm of French layers/barristers in UK terms) in Angouleme, here in France. Having examined the documents from my bank and appraised themselves of the circumstances, they advised me that the definitive position under French Law is as follows :-
The contract I signed with the UK Ferrari specialist, at my home address, to sell the car to him, is null and void. For these reasons.
1. “ The owner of the car (my bank) was not party to the car sales contract contract, negotiated and signed in France”.
2. “ The outstanding finance on the car, could and should, have been discovered by the buyer in advance of the contract being sighed in France”.
3. “The ownership of the car will remain with my bank until such time as the lone is paid off, in full”
4. “ When the lone is paid off in full, the ownership of the car will revert to me”.

“I have committed a crime, in selling a car in France that has outstanding finance on it without telling the buyer in advance” ( he told me that I was unlikely to be pursued for this because the bank would not make a formal complaint, as long I kept up the payments, as a successful prosecution was
liable to effect my ability to continue to make those payments”

The practical effect of all this, is that the car remains in the ownership of my bank, until the lone is paid off in full. When the lone is paid off the car will revert to my ownership.
The UK Ferrari specialist that has the car con not legally sell it or keep as he does not own it and there is no legitimate contract for him to exercise a traders lien over it.
I am not sure if I am comforted or more concerned.

 

I have worked with quite a number of french banks for a period of twenty years, but I still find difficult to understand how there could have been outstanding finance on a thirty years-old car that you have owned for he last 21 years.
Unless it has served as a collateral for another loan, that is: a loan destined to buy something else, such as a house; which would be a scheme that I have seen abroad, but almost never heard of in France.

As for the sale, refer to what I wrote in my first post:
if the sale has been done in France, as a seller you MUST provide the potential buyer with a „certificat de non-gage“ which proves that there is no outstanding finance on the car, and that you are its legal owner. It is clear that you would not have been able to provide that document, had the sale been done in France. And without it, the car cannot be titled, nor registered to anyone.

I suspect that, as the car is still under a british registration, and was sold by you to an U.K buyer, it was sold under the usual UK practice, which I am not aware of, and that it occured to nobody that it might have been under some „outstanding finance“ in France.
There are quite a number of legal aspects to the transaction: is it under british law because you were acting on british soil and are a british national, or under french law because the legal owner of he car is the bank, etc…this must be decided by your lawyers.
But under french law, you are not able to take any decison on something that does not belong to you (would probably be qualified as "stipulation pour autrui", but I am not sure...if it is, the transaction is indeed void).

Rgds

 

Hi
1. the car is British registered RHD always has been
2. the transaction was carried out in France ( the UK Ferrari Specialist came over to France To view it and drove it back to the UK that Day.
The lone was to cover money I already owed to the bank ( half a House/business, Divorce ect)

 

He was using the appraised value of the car as equity.

Banks here would roll their eyes, it only worked until Lord Brockett hit the news....


Upside down is upside down.
It does not sound like the bank had it's Lien registered against the title.
That would be their mistake.