375+ # 0384

Good point....

I guess it's legal to shoot a gun with the numbers ground off, but if it's found in a crime scene it's another story.

0384 is definitely a rolling Crime Scene..LOL!

 

Thank you.

It is in fact a strong argument, irrespective if it was not true.

 

Not sure I disagree but not sure I agree either. Paperwork from importation called the car 0384.

 

It's a valid point I feel...

The car was 0394 with Swaters, until Kleve could no longer pursue a viable recovery effort, due to failing health and mental incapacity.

Then, it becomes 0384 again, but that actually proves it was the Kimberly car, which was the documentation trail that led to it resting in the mud.

All this justification between Swaters and Kleve of a "sale" or a "settlement" has Swaters in possession of the stolen car, and having the upper hand being beyond the reach at that time, of US law.

 

During the proceedings in London did anyone question why the Swater's side did not have Mark Daniels testimony/deposition? They could have good reason to want his information to support their version of history.

People question why the OC contingent did not use Daniels but I can see that the BC contingent could have wanted him too.

Jeff

 

No, the part between Swaters and our own OldGuy is pretty clear to me.

But, as OldGuy's position makes clear, IF it's 0834, then it's the Kimberly car, and claims the racing history of that VIN.

But, it cannot be both......at some point "it's an 8 or a 9" begs a decision.

We now see it's an 8
It's been an 8 all along, with a slip of the striking hammer at the Factory

 

It seems to me they preferred to use the two cancelled checks.
They had them.

 

I have a memory of reading somewhere that the Swaters team tried unsuccessfully to contact Daniels, but it is only a memory so I can't say whether or not that is true.

 

Where do you get the idea that an actual alteration of the Ferrari's identification number had been molested? If that was true, then tell us where exactly the number was changed! Yes, that would be a felony. But, that never happened.

There is no lack of attention by Justice Flaux. And no chassis number was ever changed by anyone for illegal purposes. If you'd do your homework and read the history of the car since birth and the Judges findings, you'd know there has always been some confusion about the car's serial number simply because the stamping wasn't clear and couldn't distinguish if the 8 was a 9 or vise versa. That doesn't mean someone restamped it. If it was restamped or someone did something to the number to make it look like it was 0394 then there would have to be some proof and everybody would know about it by now. The data plate was never changed, the stamping on the frame was never tampered with, no where on any physical part on the car was the number changed. So where do you people get the idea that Swaters did something to the chassis number?

Anything during this pre-1999 time slot regarding confusion on the 0394AM number was fully explained in the London Court, and reviewed in Justice Flaux's ruling. No stone went unturned, and Joe Ford was there to make his case without any restraint.

There exist no evidence whatsoever that the number 0394AM has ever been installed on Swaters car. There was no "re-stamping". Joe is the only one that said there was. There was no 0394AM chassis plate. There was no alternations whatsoever anywhere of the 0394AM number put on the chassis of 0384AM. That's all make believe by Joe. There was never a restamping, nor tampering with the numbers on the chassis itself or the data plate. The Fearrari has always been SN 0384AM. Joe manufactured these stories about the ownership issue of 0384AM, and has created a very expensive fraud on the Courts. The number 0394AM never existed anywhere on the body at any time on the chassis of 0384AM, and Joe's theory was proven as false information.

If you read the entire London High Court's order, this was tested and concluded. Joe explained it according to his belief and "theory", but summited no evidence to backup his case that there actually existed any alterations to the serial number anywhere on the car or off the car at any time ever. So….at the end of this story after he had his turn in Court, it cost him and Lawson $700,000 in charges (due now), and neither one of them have any money to pay! Instead, Lawson’s property in Ohio is going under the hammer.

Swaters bought 0384AM openly in Belgium, and all his documents always reflected 0384AM. The Ferrari SN: 0384AM was legally imported into Belgium, and was documented as 0384AM. When it was seized by authorities as 0384AM in 1989, it was released a year later as 0384AM when the Royal Court of Belgium declared it clean to sell according to law. Kleve did nothing during this time to procure any rights he may have had in it. Kleve’s plan was to let Swaters restore the car first, then do a "grab" on the chassis which he declared was stolen and get the benefits of Swaters work, his expense and his documentation. A real crook.

The car was never hidden at any time by anyone. It was under restoration and then put on display as 0384AM the entire time while it was in the Ferrari Showroom, and also in Belguim at Swaters Museum, plus it was on the track where the FIA papers were issued as 0384AM. The 0394AM confusion was part of the Ford game to get all of you into the Champagne room.

Swaters tested the chassis to "raise" a number on the chassis in 1990, and the engineering firm could not see even with xrays if it was a 9 or an 8 in the 03_4 AM number. That prompted Swaters to go through a normal and transparent communication dialog with all Ferrari experts around the world regarding 0394AM and 0384AM. Those two numbers, at that time, had interlaced with this car for decades before Swaters ever purchased it, and even before Kleve owned it. The confusion is well documented in the Ferrari archives, proving there was a clear swapping of 375 Plus numbers starting in 1954.

If you read the Courts discision, it says it all concisely and professionally. What’s important is that the evidence supported in the decision is factual, and Joe Ford had no documents proving his own twisted theory, hence – Ford lost.

The one person who got snowed into the Ford game is Les Wexner. Now what's happened is Wexner is scrambling to change his position after hearing Justice Flaux mention during the Court hearing that Stu Carpenter and Leslie Wexner are suing the wrong people for fraud. I doubt the Judge will treat the "Billionaire" with any sort of sympathy, but, again Les Wexner is not the first person victimized by Ford’s legal antics. You can’t really blame Les so much, after all Les only has to buy his way out of this problem, where all the other’s involved in this case who have dealt with Ford have already paid the price.

 

mbzgurl

Although I agree with most of the factual points you state, I have to be fair to both sides and say that you are wrong that the car was never presented as 0394 after restoration.There are photos of it both at the Galeria in Maranello and at Garage Francorchamps with a board in front saying chassis 0394. I can't explain that because I just don't know the answer. The Joe side will say that proves their point but I'm not sure I agree. Ferrari themselves would not have allowed that in the Galeria if it was a falsehood (unless anyone is accusing Ferrari of being complicit in falsification, which I think is dangerous ground to tread). Contrary to popular belief Ferrari's factory records are not foolproof. Has anyone ever considered that they too might have been unsure of the actual identity and took a cautious route?

 

Hello Francis,

As Marcel and El Wayne and many others can document, Ferrari has displayed a fake California Spyder among other falsehoods in their Galleria. During the time of display, it was labeled as the real thing.
Not a misnumbered car. Much worse.

Best Regards,
Dave

 

Francisn~

Thanks for the correction. I never saw the photo of the board with 0394AM, and who knows when such a sign was printed, likely at the time of the research I assume. There were several instances where the number 0394AM was used in race programs and magazine articles, but I don't believe that the car itself ever wore the number. If there was a consealment, you wouldn’t stamp the chassis and install a chassis plate with sn: 0384AM, and those were done in 1992-1996. Using it in a display wouldn’t mean anything if the chassis plate and chassis always had 0384AM and that's the way it's been since the restoration. When the car was in the Galleria at Maranello, it absolutely had the number 0384AM stamped on the chassis and the partially finished new motor was stamped as it is today with 0394AM. That’s reflective in the FIA documents. It was this motor that was raced in the 1990’s, I assume before the original motor was bought in 2009. It’s my thought that Jacques had doubts about the 0394AM number, as it’s a normal research to be between two places with a theory in motion. But, his "hiding" the car under the 0394 number is a Fordism, one of many. I heard that the "Classiche Certificate" is sitting on a desk, completed now, and ready for it's new owner….

 

Could someone comment on what plausible defense Bohmans has; clearly Wexner's claim is reasonably justified - ongoing litigation in Ohio, a questionable HoA, Zanotti ownership claims, "parts". In fact how much of 0384 is actually from 0384??

Was this not a misrepresentation of the car? The description of the car should have at least mentioned it.

Bohmans statement that Wexner's claims will be "strongly contested" seems ridiculous.

 

Unless Bohmans defense is "Google" and Ferrarichat...

 

Justice Flaux made a number of observations regarding the evidence presented to the hearing including why Daniels was never contacted by Ford

1. Swaters and Lankeswert were the only creditable witnesses that were actually there as Lawson refused to come and Fords involvement was after the event. Tim Smith did testify that Kleve had actually told him the settlement value had been altered but given his financial interest in the case and the fact he did nothing about it, this was not given weight
2. Kleve had a habit of taping every conversation and some transcripts were presented. However, strangely there were no recordings from July 1999 and after the September 1999 agreement that supported the allegation that Kleve did not get paid
3. Kleve was a hoarder and kept every document and yet his all important bank statements were missing
4. The total absence of any litigation against Swaters or Daniels after key events. Kleve could have appealed the Belgium release of his car, but didn't
5. The conduct of Kleve before and after the Settlement that suggested that Kleve was not a victim and that he and Daniels were setting Swaters up

 

Francis, where did you get this information as I have not seen any photographic evidence of 0394 on the car but only references to the number in articles including one on the Galeria. Joe tried very hard to get a picture of a renumbered car or FIA papers and race entries showing 0394 but failed. What was clear from the hearing was that the chassis was being hawked around the market and Swaters was unsure what he was buying. For me, given the extensive reference to 0384 in the critical documents, the idea that he could hide the car using 0394 is simply not creditable

K

 

I never wrote that the numbering was ON the car, only on a display board in front of the car describing it.

 

Kim

As per my reply to mbzgurl below. I was not trying to say that the car ever carried anything on it to identify it as 0394. Only that 0394 appeared on a display board in front of it describing the car. Who knows who was responsible for that. As Readplays wrote, Ferrari have been guilty of far worse than that at the Galeria.

I agree with your last 2 sentences.

 

Sorry Francis I was unclear but where have you seen a picture of a board with the car suggesting it was 0394 ?

 

I can't remember now, but I will try to find it.

 

Does anyone have an actual picture of the chassis number itself as stamped on the frame? If so -- can you post and share with us? Thanks.

 

Thank you.

IIRC the Chassis plate under Kleve's ownership was missing, (Like the odometer! )this chassis has NEVER had a number plate thru the entire theft and restoration..??
The chassis tubes themselves are not stamped it's a steel tag tack welded on the tube, which Ferrari themselves was known to swap around between races (but not on this car, that was sold to America....) Kimberly's race events are all well documented.

I think she protests too much, her posts are always filled with just as many erroneous "statements of fact" as she accuses OJ of making...

And it's always the same revisionist position too....

 

Cavallino's coverage of FF40.....
HTH....

 

'concealment'.. . if there's a chassis plate now, it's been mounted since the theft...go back and read OldGuys communication with swaters....those are voices from the grave that deserve to be heard.

 

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