Why are mid engined V8s getting larger each generation?

The horsepower wars, and some needed increase as cars are larger/heavier due to various regulations and features.

 

Their target Buyer is also getting "larger" (so need more room) - ZING!

 

You need a lot more room to haul around all that new electro-mechanical CRAP that STEERERs need ..... that DRIVERs used to do.

 

Errr,.....

The 488 engine is technically smaller than the 458 engine......

 

I think crashworthiness would have been the major driver in the increase in size between the F355 and 360 where the "big" jump in size took place.

And a larger car is also more comfortable for bigger people and hence easier to sell (the population is getting taller and fatter) and one of the aims of Ferrari over the past 15 years has been to build cars that are increasingly more useable (they've been successful with this as the average annual mileage of newer Ferrari's has doubled from 3000 to 6000 kms.

The good thing is that while the size of the car has increased, the weight of the cars has hardly changed.

M

 

F12 is physically smaller than 599 if that helps (and not before time !)

 

Car makers now make cars for people who are 6 foot 6 and 400 lbs.

I'm not joking. They feel if they can't do this that people who are 6 foot three will feel "cramped" and not buy it.

Try that in a Dino and you'll understand why cars are getting larger, along with crash protection and "luxury" items.

 

Reminds me of a story about Luigi Della Grotta. Someone here posted something along the lines of him saying 'lose some weight and I might sell you a car'.

Sounds like a good policy. Lets scale these back down

 

The 246/308/328 series had a compact power unit because they stacked the motor on top of the trans at the expense of a too high CG compromising handling.

The 348/355 lengthened the space required for the drive train to lower the CG but the design prevented good use of underbody aero.

360/430 lengthened the space needed for the drive train to take advantage of that underbody aero and raised the roof and lengthened the cabin to respond for demands for head and leg room.
While the 360 may have been larger than 355 it was lighter....how is that bad?




What part of very useful technical innovation and customer demand should have been ignored to please a few purists that were not buying cars?


The sales numbers speak to the choices made.

 

Not according to some on this site. I've repeatedly read how the 360 is heavier because of "power seats" and "extras". How they manage to go over 150-200 lb weight savings of aluminum baffles me. I can tell the difference in performance when I have a passenger in the car with me, that's basically driving with an extra passenger all the time. OTOH the laws of physics and materials science is rather overrated...

 

Fwiw I have said they are lighter, just not as much difference as some think. What is baffling about it?

99GTS- 4 gallons of fuel 3,162lbs
95 Berlinetta- 8 gallons of fuel 3,199lbs

Bill S's Challenge Stradale-

zero fuel- 2916lbs
full tank- 3104

Half tank would be 3,010, which makes CS 189lbs lighter than 95 F355.

How much heavier is a Modena? Of course it would depend on spec (power seats/etc) but considering the above I bet it's not even 100lbs lighter than 355.

So lighter, yes, just not by several hundred pounds.
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Ferrari said it was a 70 kg difference, so where is the disagreement?

 

Frank Lloyd Wright refused to accomodate people over 6 feet. "I don't design for weeds" . . .

 

Yes, Ferrari puts dry weights at-

F355 berlinetta- 1350kg/2976lbs

360 modena- 1290kg/2843lbs

360CS- 1180kg/2601lbs


We have Bill S's CS at 2916lbs no fuel which is similar to others I've seen on the scales. Ferrari has it at 2601lbs dry. How much are the fluids?


Really not much of a disagreement, just seems that the Ferrari claimed weight is less than what they are scaling at. (and more of a spread between models than what they actually come in at).

 

Ferraris claims were for the chassis, not the total vehicle weight. The 360 chassis is lighter but they added more to the interior, crash protection etc. so that the overall car weight is a little more, at least for US cars. I think it would depend on options - a base 355 GTB would probably be around the same as a base 360, but whereas the 355 didn't have many options, you probably couldn't find a 360 without some options and you could get power seats and all kinds of other stuff (sunroof even!) in the 360 that could balloon the weight up. I think the only options for the 355 were a 6 disc changer (maybe 5lbs added) and carbon sport seats (quite a bit lighter, but neither seats were power).

Kind of off topic - but the answer to the op is more power. If you want more power, you either make the engine make more torque at the same rpm or you make the engine spin higher with the same torque. The 355 rev limiter was 8750rpm, 458 9000rpm, so they only increased 250rpm in 17 years. Only other way to increase power was to make more torque and there are two ways to do that - bigger engine (they did that) or more efficient engine (they did that as well with direct injection and higher compression).

Personally I'd take a 12000rpm 3.5 liter, but that would be incredibly difficult to get past emissions and would probably cost even more than the 4.5 at 9000rpm due to the advanced valvetrain it would need. So, bigger engines make for easier power.

 

I think those are euro car weights, we know (as shown in that scales thread) that the US cars weight quite a bit more.

Scaled 355 gtb's I've seen anywhere from 3050 to 3150lbs, which could be year dependent or could just be the scales used. US weight for the 360 seem to be around 3200lbs. YMMV, but it should be fairly easy to figure out. I know a guy who has some scales so could weight my late '94 build 355 gtb if anyone with a 360 wants to do the same.

 

Why is that? Valve overlap?

 

Yeah, you'd need some pretty aggressive cams to get another 3000-4000 rpms. Even with variable valve timing, DI and all of their other tricks, it'd be tough to do. Problem is that they mandate idle emissions at 1000rpm, and even getting an engine that revs that high to idle nicely at that rpm is somewhat tough, let alone with decent emissions.

It's probably possible but a lot more difficult than just making the engine bigger - as then you also have to warranty that 12,000rpm valvetrain...

 

My numbers are for total car weight. EU version 99 355 and 99 360. 1460 kg 355 and 1390kg 360.

 

May be valid for EU, but it doesn't appear so for US cars. Somebody should just weigh them and see.

 

What does a mechanic that's respected internationally and Ferrari know anyway. They built the thing.

 

The jump that is noticeable to me is when the 360 came along because it was all aluminum. Different tooling to form the parts and different panel connections. The concept spent 2000 hours in the wind tunnel and the shape emerged. Quite comfy inside could be used as a GT!

 

Well, the actual weighed Challenge Stradale was 300lbs more than the Ferrari quoted weight. Do you still trust those numbers? I know I don't. There have been a couple of 355 gtb owners that have weighed their cars and they came in between 3050 and 3150lbs. Car and Driver weighed a US 360 modena F1 at 3291lbs. They weighed a 355 gtb at 3268lbs. So, you tell me - or better yet, go have your car weighed and see.

Aston Martin DB7 Vantage vs. Porsche 911 Turbo, Ferrari 360 Modena F1 Comparison Tests - Page 4 - Car and Driver