I agre with you Kim. I just didn't think it right to assume anything before the judge had allowed Joe his say in court.
I was of course incorrect in the way I wrote. Kim is quite correct that there was no expiry date written into the HOA contract. So no - it had not expired. Ford/Lawson's claim is that because the auction did not take place in Sept 13, as originally planned and noted in the HOA, then the HOA became invalid. That is the wording in the HOA that might be disputed, not an expiry date or cancellation clause (of which there is none). Have to be very careful to get these legal points right
May I wish almost everyone who has expended so much effort upon this thread over the past year a very relaxing and Happy Christmas and a perhaps more peaceful New Year. DCN
Thanks Doug Hopefully 2016 will bring an end to this long running saga and 0384 can just be enjoyed for being a wonderful car.
I for one, hope this saga never ends. And I wouldn't be surprised if it kept going for a ways longer. There are so many entrails I would think even when the court case is over there will be repercussions that could drag on for a while longer. Perhaps not as publicly, shame.
Well said. At this point not much has to do with the car. It's all about of how badly almost everyone involved handled this. It really goes back to Bonhoms who were blind to the writing on the wall and never should have put this on the block before a more thorough investigation into the past. tong's crew
Actually George, although Bonhams may have been a bit remiss, I think time will tell that Joe Ford played very silly and unwarranted games with the HOA. But time will tell, particularly at the court case n London in April. But don't be surprised if Bonhams come out exonerated. F
I hope you are correct. However my opinion is that if Bonhoms was asked today, off the record,they would wish they had never gotten involved. More and better research, if done, would have undoubtedly encouraged them never to get involved or at least be better prepared. tong's crew
There seems to be no limit to those who have held this person to have been "born on the wild side" He was on his rampage early on. Bonhoms should have picked up on this. They have yet to explain and probably never will. Joe may yet sue them. tonga'screw
Joe Ford *is* suing Bonhams. My speculations about Bonhams include that they attributed to Joe Ford qualities he turned out not to have. First they expected that his word, as memorialized in the HoA, was good. Barring that, they expected that the prospect of a share of the OC's 50% would motivate him to do his part to see that an auction took place at the highest possible price. Barring that, they expected that he would act rationally after the auction had become a fait accompli. They were wrong on all counts. In Bonhams' defense, no one can do business with the expectation that one's counterparts will be liars, cheaters, greedy beyond reason, and ultimately irrational. Bonhams modeled Joe Ford as just another of the schemers who must come along regularly in the auction business, whether it be a frustrated heir seeking a bigger cut from the auction of a rare family heirloom, or an opportunistic fraud like Zanotti in the present matter. But this model must include the expectation that the schemer will act rationally and in his own best interests. Again, this is a mold that Joe Ford does not fit. Bonhams went wrong on other things as well. But this is the main one.
Exactly Bill Joe's "logic" is baffling, as has been pointed out by various counsel in court. No-one quite understands his stance as every position he takes seem to minimise his potential financial benefit. But if Joe still has some "game changing plan" he is rapidly running out of time".
still wondering how Zanotti was able to con Bonhams out of $1,000,000 cash ( or what ever the correct amount is )... it would seem that Bonhams would not be so loose with their money, especially on short notice... it suggests that Bonhams management was caught up in some internal mechanizations, that it was decided to be better to move forward with the auction at all cost, than suffer from internal strife... their actions defy reasonable procedure
True, Bonhams decision seems bit daft in retrospect. But a claim on the car a few days before the auction - pay the guy off because you don't have time to investigate might seem reasonable. Now of course it all turns out to be a con and that of course is being litigated
I may be naive but to give away $1,000,000 to cover "internal naivete" ??? Not in my office. Like so many others these days, some and more than just one need to go to jail. tonga's crew
It's the time of the year where I had some time off to read interesting stories...hence I came across this thread by accident and spent some considerable time trying to understand all of the contents of what is/was going on... It started when I picked up the 'Ferrari Fever' book by Paul Schouwenburg. I have always been intrigued by 'car stories' - especially if they are about the 'dark side' and mis-representation - it is a fantastic breathing ground for great stories. Via the book I came to Jaques Swaters webstite and read about the 375+ and found this thread. Yet it left me with a sad feeling, and I feel sad after reading most of the story - for almost anyone involved. Every day I tell and teach my kids to always try to bring a smile one someone elses face, as the first principle in life, as it makes your own life - as well as that of the other - much more enjoyable. In my own opinion, in complex cases like this, there is never one side that can claim 100% of all rights...or should I say doing the right thing, as everything in life is about perception of who is right or wrong. Apparently there is consensus that there always needs to be a loser, what ever happens! It's sad and unnecessary...why not every one win. 1. I feel sorry for the Kleve heirs...they never asked for 'their' family car to be stolen of their dads lot. If it had rotten away, or would have been scrapped...they would have not gotten into this trouble and be left empty handed, and even worse also with a huge bill to pay...as it looks now. How much better would have been the outcome in case they would have reached out with the Swaters heirs and clinched a deal over a coffee or cup of tea...sharing great stories all together...there would be no doubts about the provenance of the car and it could hit major numbers...and anyone could have lived happy after. 2. I hope the Swaters heirs were not to distracted or were dealing with sleepless nights...after all its only money...and it can't buy back time...yet time is for most the scarcest resource in todays modern world lifes....you can't put numbers on time lost that you could have enjoyed living, with family, instead of dealing with the negatives of going to court. 3. For the rest of people involved. I have learned, that in case you are happy with what you got out of it, don't bother to much with the exact numbers the other people got out of it and give them a smile and them tell you are happy with what they got out of it, either deserved, rightfully owned, or not at all. 4. As for the Victoria Secret buyer...Victory Secret was founded by Roy Raymond, but he sold (or was forced to sell) the chain to Leslie Wexner for what is said $1Mio...to find that only 2 years later the company was worth $500Mio. Roy Raymond at the same time was in trouble and decided to kill himself and jumped of the Golden Gate within 2 years after the handover of Victoria Secret...I guess he could have used someone close who could put have a smile on his face and a share in (also his) success...yet who am I to comment on this... Maybe I am cutting some corners here..and after all it is all about perception and not about knowing all the facts that only the true (very few) insiders know...but wouldn't it have been a so much better outcome, if for all involved it would have come out good...the heirs with enough saving on the bank and feeling they did the right thing and knowing the car is in good hands...the reputations of the original actors Swaters and Kleve...the middlemen (even the ones that may not deserve it)...the new owner...Bonham's...the whole pie was large enough to make everybody happy to a certain extend. Grant someone else a good life, and chances are that they wish you the same. Sometimes it is better to keep talking and not prosecute. Maybe I am naive...and after all, when looking for a moral compass...Ferrari world may not be the best environment to place your bets... Just my very few cents to this conversation (for what it is worth).
It's definately high dollar underwear.......but, it looks good "on".... Great first post! Welcome.... "What its worth" is always a highly subjective discussion.
Mr Vito has returned from his Christmas holidays and is posting again on the other site. There are plenty of allegations on the conduct of Wexner and associates before and after the auction that only adds to the intrigue. The only matter I can substantiate is the claim that Ford has commenced proceeding in Palm Beach County, Florida against Gardner and the American Arbitration Association (case 502015CA013920XXXXMB ) "To modify an arbitration award or in the alternative vacate portion of award that exceeded the scope of the dispute subject to arbitration" Clearly the AAA are as incompetant as the English Courts. Yet another appeal and attempt to keep the plates spinning but it does beg the question: Will such action be in breach of the injunction granted by Justice Flaux ? Roll on the case managment hearing in February !
I usewd to know how to get to 'the other site' but i know longer know what to search for, can a kind person please help deepen my entertainment with this information? Tia.
Well, the picture of "Max" with the "GTO spyder" is actually Frank Beard of ZZ Top, that house is in Sugarland TX!!
