Anybody know what the 512BBs bid too., At Ariz one sold for 440k and another in the low 3's, condition is everything.
That's an understatement. 4 sold and 6 unsold. It had to be quite depressing for the Porsche community to see 4 unsold cars in a row (Lots 206 thru 209).
Bradwilliams, ...don't forget these words of wisdom you yourself said five years ago, what happened since then that you've become one of the 'losers'?" (your word from 5 years ago, not mine) ttorcefed sums it up: Image Unavailable, Please Login
Marcel Massini was in Paris for Retromobile and noted that 'ZERO vibe. Party is over. As said before: market correction of at least 20 percent, within the last two weeks.' And if there is one person I would trust, its Marcel. For the past 12 months most auctions have had 75+% of lots sold at or below low estimate which asks questions of seller motivation and more-so that there are simply too many auctions, with a need to be fed with consignments that are frequently bottom-feeding. Several commentators including BIRA have noted that anyone that wants a particular car have their opportunity, witness Artcurial not selling the last SWB, when there has been 6 - 10 SWB sold in 2015, giving any potential purchaser plenty of chances to buy and further the chance to be picky and select the one with the provenance or condition they want. As Dave mentioned there are a lot of purchasers or potential purchasers that were using the cheap finance to make buying decisions that they may not do this year. IMO the market is okay but you have a division between cash buyers who want a good deal and sellers who will only sell at record levels...... Even if their car is a dog. OTOH Artcurial sold the 335s for strong money vis a vis the market slowdown and that gives support to the claim that the market is still strong for the best and unique. Amelia Island is coming up in a month with large quantities of million dollar lots from Bonhams, Gooding & RM including Gooding which is offering some 18 Porsche from Jerry Seinfelds collection, many of which will test the market. Will be fascinating to watch.
I think you're spot on. However, a rising (or receding) tide does have an effect on all ships so while I think there will be a growing divide based off quality and true rarity, if the market sentiment continues to tilt down, even the high end will eventually be impacted. Of course, I would guess / hope that most buyers at that end of the spectrum are immune from the market movements (though all else equal, people prefer to see their assets go up rather than down).
The 512 BB at Bonhams in AZ sold for 253,000 all in. The BB at RM Paris was a No Sale, as were lots 117 and 218 at Artcurial.
Rather than quoting one sale of a dog Boxer, For those that want to really understand how the Boxers performed in Scottsdale see link: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/boxers-tr-m/512270-boxers-rm.html
What's funny is people think a market either needs to be red hot or falling like a kamikaze fighter plane. This perception is what causes erratic highs and lows in any market.
Super_Dave, Most of your last 5 posts I will admit are reasonably spot on. However, I found this quote strange however: Are you saying that there is not *more* wealth today (including central government shenanigans) today than say at the crash? (especially in China?) I completely agree that some of the wealth comes from central bank manipulation, but your quote here implies that *all* or *most* the wealth creation in say the last 5-6 years has been a facade. (or say the last 20 years in China) Did I misinterpret you here? Thanks
+2 Well said, what troubles me even more is people that don't approach it from an intellectual curiosity or a counter financial position, but simply due to maliciousness...
+3 And people confuse asking prices to selling prices. If asking prices were more at auctions this year than last year but actually sold similar to last year , then the market is stabilizing. Even if it's up or down 10% , it's more due to different cars hitting the market. It's almost impossible to get the exact same cars on the market year over year to Match as a perfect science.
+1 True enthusiasts likely won't sell once they have obtained the car of their dreams. My belief is simply that markets rise rapidly when a commodity (in this case cars) gains interest by those who have little knowledge or enthusiasm for them. In my case I bought my cars when the time and price was right for me. In the interim I could have sold them and made a very tidy profit however I haven't because quite simply I like and enjoy them. Unlike those that have jumped into the market in the last couple years the leveling of prices or their inevitable decline is of little consequence. True collectors are in it for the long haul and care little if values fluctuate. Values only matter if you are trying to protect your money or generate a return on your investment. In either case the classic/collector/exotic automobile arena is a risky place to put money one can't afford to lose. At day's end, buy what you like and can afford, otherwise buy a poster hang it in your garage or man cave and get what you can afford but continue to be an enthusiast for what you love. Either that or take up knitting
Not a good showing for Porsches...[/QUOTE] a lot of unworthy Porches have been resurrected by flippers which otherwise should have gone to the breakers...the recent rise in their value, lead by headline grabbing sales opened the flood gates to grab some quick cash... purchasers have been burned by the crap and are being more aware of what to buy... like with Ferrari the good cars have no trouble finding a new home...
Validates my previous point regarding those diving into a market that they know little or care less about trying to "protect" their money. New bait for the sharks
Agreed. Only caveat is that I would emphasize the "likely" and also say that some true enthusiasts acquire more cars than just their exact dream car. Those other cars could be bought / sold with financial considerations in mind, just so long as a profit goal is not one of the main motivating factors. Too many pure speculators are in the market, and enough misinformed people that tag along (without a primary intention of flipping but wanting to either participate in a hot market, or at least not be left behind). Like many things in life, there is also a bit of a gray zone...
With respect and civility, What Ferrari(s) did you have your eye on in the last five years that have now due to the bubble reconsidered purchasing?
I of course can only speak for myself but the 250PF, 330GTC (although my business partner got his just under the wire) and the series 2 330gt series. I should have bought a 512 when they were below $100,000, there was a choice of 2 at the place I bought my Dino from when I was there. I would love a Lusso but at today's prices I would have to sell all my other cars plus add a bit which to me isn't worth it. Could I stretch and do it, sure I could but I like my other stuff as well. I am not bitter/annoyed/depressed or envious of those that own any other car. Good for them I hope they drive them and enjoy them as much I do with mine
Thanks, Jamie! Excellent selections I remember seeing the 330GT in the 80's range back during the crash. The truth of the matter was this; I was not passionate about it enough back then to pick it up, Que sera! All I can say now is I'm happy for those that had the love back then to pick them up. I don't think you are the tiniest bit bitter/annoyed/depressed/ or envious, hence, why you share my same sentiments toward owners that do own these cars. There is a cohort here, however, that revel in negative pontifications of prices not because they were planning to buy a 330 now (and lament the price increase), nor would they acquire it if it went down to 80K in the future. Have no stake in the game so to speak, and spend the majority of their time putting down the owners and said values of their assets. A strange mindset no? On a FERRARI forum no less?
Paul, Truer words have never been spoken. lol I too cannot believe the bitter comments from some in this forum, aren't we celebrating and enjoying the discussion of a marque that we love? I can tell you one thing, in the Ford Model T forum while they occasionally disagree on authenticity you never run into anyone putting the owners down for their choice. As an aside my first Ferrari was an 89 Mondial T Cab which I loved. I sold it because my wife complained that the seats were made for women who had never given birth and therefore their hips weren't as wide. I would buy another if the right one came my way but I would look for a coupe this time.
this is an interesting thread it was started over 3 years ago 1/18/2013 ... sure is a lot of negative feeling toward the market. However i believe 2016 will be a flat to slightly down market for collectors cars of all brands ... some models will soften some will grow and other will just stay about the same. WHen i look at the scottsdale auctions there appeared to be some good buys and then again some not very good buys. all in all if you had bought about any car in jan of 2013 and resold that same car this year you probably came out ahead .... so all the worrying about nothing..... lets go enjoy our cars .....
