Was Eddie Irvine a worse No. 2 than Felipe Massa

I liked Irv the Swerve, but massa was the better driver, and I suspect would have grasped his opportunity in 1999 IF he had been comfortable with the car (as we will never know that)

 

Yeah, but you're talking about Michael at the very height of his powers - I don't think *anyone* could get within a second of him when he was 'on'. He was quite simply on another planet.

Doubtful. I like Phil a lot, overall good guy. But IMO at least, Freds the closest we have to another Michael right now. He's simply faster than anyone else, given a car that's not a complete POS as of right now of course.

Cheers,
Ian

 

I liked Eddie, he was a good driver, better than D.c for example. I think massa was better than him, surely a lot better than Barrichelo. I don't wan't to compare Felipe to alonso because it simply isn't fair....Massa had just returned from a coma, he rushed into the car without being prepared for it (because he was afraid to lose his place) and the result was a disaster. I said it several times here, the day Massa drove the car for the first time after his accident, everyone said he was 100%, it was not true. I was told by someone close to him and that was there that Felipe had troubles with his test, at high speeds and under braking (Piquet said several times he believed Massa sufered from the same problem he did after crashing at Tamburelo in 87, wich was loosing depth perception, wich made him a lot slower under braking because he wasn't sure were to do it anymore, he had to look for those signs with 200m..100m before braking).
With Massa not on his best, Alonso easily took over control at Ferrari, and from then on it only got worse for Felipe, he felt he no longer was a nº1 driver, the development of the car folowed Alonso's preferences and this kept hurting Felipe's.....you all can notive that at the beggining of the year, Alonso was a lot better, but in the second half of the season, Felipe starte to catch him, and many times like in 2012, by the end of the season, Felipe was as good if not the better of the two..why? I believe the car was built to suit Alonso's needs, and at first, Massa had a hard time driving it, with the passing of time, he came to adapt and understand the car, near the end of the season, he already could drive it.
Alonso vs Massa in 08 or 09 would have been a much diferent story. Massa in his prime was simply as good as Hamilton, we all saw it (although some choose to forget..)

 

Neither driver, imo, could do anything unless their car was perfect. Like them both but...

 

+1 well reasoned comments.

 

Felipe impressed me(and everybody) with his performance in 2008. His drive at Interlagos was flawless, but for the farce in Singapore and Hamilton's last lap pass in Brazil he would have been World Champion. I've always felt that he is too nice a guy to be champion, he doesn't seem to possess the killer instinct--ruthlessness--that others do. His performance at Williams has been a revelation, Bottas has nothing on him. Bravo Felipe.

 

Absolutely agree

 

Not sure about the lack of "killer instinct"....just look at the start of 2008 hungarian g.p, that was the stuff of great, great drivers, and his batle with Kubica in the wet at japan...balls out, the best i saw in a very long time....and how many direct fights against Hamilton....i think he simply misses that litle bit of luck....he fully deserved that 2008 title, and if not for his accident next year, i believe everyone would talk about him in a very diferent way....

 

100% This ^

 

I think during Michael's period, especialy from 94 to let's say 2002 at least there were only 2 guys that could take a fight to him on a good day, Alesi and Mika, therest were so far behind they couldn't even see him!!

 

I believe that Massa is signicantly better than Irvine, but then I do not rate Irvine that high as he nevery really was that strong in comparison to any of his teammates. He was entertaining to listen to but his modest level of in car success was more due to Michael being out due to his injury at Silverstone to which Eddie was able to parlay into a significant Jaguar contract.

Massa was able to outshine Kimi in 2008 and 2009 until his injury in Hungary. The manner in which Massa in the twilight of his career is keeping pace with Bottas is impressive. I think Massa's mental toughness took a real blow when he received the famous "Fernado is faster than you" call from Ferrari, but it was true, as mentioned above Fernando is faster that almost all of the current drivers on the grid. Massa seems to have finally gotten over that and now is driving much better and seems to be enjoying racing.

 

+1

The 'nearly man'.... Almost, but not quite....

Agreed on Mika. He was another that could make a car do stuff it really didn't want to do.

I know you're a huge Alesi fan, but I'm not sure even he could hold the proverbial candle to Michael on a good day. Very, very good jockey, but not in the same class IMO.

Cheers,
Ian

 

I guess given the diference in machinery that both used we will never know....on the other hand there were those days when the Ferrari was actualy competitve and he was able to fight Michael, some he won, some he lost....the talent and speed was definitly there but from those 3, Michael certainly had something extra....one thing i know, in the wet both Michael and Alesi were clearly better than Mika...

 

Close to Hamolton in 2008, but definitely not equal. Some of us choose to remember Silverstone 2008, where Hamilton was a class above everyone in the wet as he drove away to the win, while Massa put on a spin-o-rama class (6 times!) as he trundled around to last place.

Massa was never any good in the wet after they banned traction control (note, Suzuka 2007 vs Kubica = TC), and a great driver excels in the wet - Senna, Schumacher, Mika, Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, for recent examples. Merely good drivers (Villeneuve, Massa) can win in a good car, but suck in wet or challenging conditions.

Well, nothing except points and championship rankings for both of their two seasons together!

I actually have been impressed with Massa's driving over the last 2 years, relative to the shambles at Ferrari the final 4 seasons. He has been more consistent, and much closer to Bottas than expected.

 

Massa was a match for Elton in 2008, only lost through bad luck in a couple races and a friendly let through by one of eltons best buds

 

Let's also remember the friendly let through my Massa's buddy Max, when he stripped the Spa victory from Hamilton and handed a 14 point swing to Massa by making up new rules after the fact. Without that gift, Massa wouldn't have been close in 2008.

 

That or the broken engine at Hungaroring, another engibe kaput at Australia, the mistake by the team at canada that made him refuel twice and droped him to 17 place, the Singapor saga, the mistake with the brakes in germany....making him give position back to Rosberg at Monza, when Hamilton did much worse ans stuck with the overtaking..o well, under normal circunstances he would have won it by more than 20 points!!!

 

Massa was so deserving of the title, Elton robbed him

 

Classic lol.



Massa > Irvine

 

In terms of effort, yes.

That was the year of the wrong winners.

Felipe drove his heart out but lost the championship ...
... largely due to blunders by the team, which won the makes championship.
McLaren did a far better team job.

But, much as I like Massa, it's clear that he has one major shortcoming:
Once the car gets loose, he can't really get it back.

We've seen any number of fantastic "saves", over the years. But few from Felipe.

Alas, he's missed his window. The way to learn to control a sideways car is rallye.
But that's not a sport for a married man.

 

Massa. He was paired with 3 different champions, and pre accident, he never got trashed.

Eddie is just entertaining to read about,

 

If Irvine was as fast as his mouth, then he would have been unbeatable.

 

Eddie was Kimi, with a bit of blarny banter and a smile. Wild, funny and had some cracking birds.

Massa was fast, but had that little last percent missing after his accident, he hasn't been 100% the same since