car design thread

Very cool!

 

fun article about J Mays & the design of the vehicles in the movie Zootopia
The Fantastic Cars Of Disney?s Zootopia Came From This Iconic Designer

 

BMW's vision of the future is certainly not boring: BMW Vision Next 100 concept


New Car: BMW Vision Next 100 concept - Car Design News

in the celebration of BMW's 100th birthday: http://www.autoextremist.com

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHB9AmpHm68[/ame]

 

What influences car design:Automotive Design:
What Influences Car Design? | Drift


Automotive design is clearly an important factor when approaching the market. There are some fundamental similarities (ie: 4 wheels, 2 or 4 doors, etc.), yet the subtle differences can change the entire look and feel. Where do these subtleties come from? I find myself asking, “what influences automotive design?”

Designers are given a project based on certain assumptions. Perhaps incorporating the chassis from an earlier model, or some applications-based requirements, such as: mini-vans are intended to serve a busy family with lots of activities and storage needs. But when it comes to the curves in the taillights, the defining lines along the body, or the expression of the front-end… where do designers develop these visions? How are their visions supported by engineering and performance requirements?

20160303 Automotive DesignIn many cases you can reference the name of the car to identify the inspiration. The VW Beetle clearly is inspired by those the bugs I see crawling around on a spring day. The Ford Mustang has a strength and aggression that is adjacent to what you might expect from the horse itself, although can you imagine the original name of the vehicle was supposed to be the Cougar? Imagine how that could have changed things!! So, while some of the animal brands might have a clear example of what the designer was going for, what about the models with names like NSX, Model S, R-8, etc. Simply a combination of letters and numbers cannot provide the ultimate desire for artistic expression.

I believe cultural trends are at the sub-conscious level of these designs. Consider clothing and fashion. The years of bell-bottom jeans aligned with the years of the ridiculously flared fenders, back when bigger meant “better”, and cars looked like land yachts. Now as technology is driving more and more functionality into a smaller and smaller device, cars are getting lighter, maximizing interior space with the minimal amount of fuel and emissions.

So why are some cars clearly more attractive and alluring than others? What is it about the car that draws buyers toward it?

I’m trying to understand why Tesla’s design for an electric vehicle is so vastly different from the others. The BMW i3 looks nothing like the rest of the BMW lineup, the only similarity being the kidney grills. Does an electric vehicle have to look like it came from the Jetson’s era in order to appeal to the typical consumer? I suppose that there is a point where form meets function, that in order to be expected to meet the needs of a particular consumer the car must have the appearance of its intended purpose. If it looks like a minimalist, high-tech, space-age ride, then it must perform like one? I don’t know though … VW certainly doesn’t think so … look at the e-Golf.

What are your thoughts? Does a car’s design impact the way you feel when you drive it? Clearly the answer is “yes.” The next question is, what inspires a buyer?
Ananda Arasu

Ananda Arasu is a Product Marketing Manager at Autodesk with focus on Automotive products and solutions. Ananda has a background in applications engineering, product management and product marketing. He has been with Autodesk for over 4 years in a product marketing capacity, with a focus on automotive solutions.His aim is to understand automotive customer needs and communicate the ways in which Autodesk’s products can best meet those needs.

 

great interview with one of the trust Italian Masters of automotive Design, Lorenzo Ramachiotti from Cardesignnews.com


Designer Interview : Lorenzo Ramaciotti on a life in Italian design
09 March 2016 | by Bart Laenarts


He’s loyal, analytical and Italian as a spritz. He’s well-dressed, and even better behaved, with a developed but classical taste. Every inch a gentleman, he knows his qualities as well as his weaknesses. As a car designer who only once applied for a job, yet retired twice, Lorenzo Ramaciotti happily looks back at 45 years within the heart of Italian car design.

Starting at Pininfarina in 1973, young Loreonzo Ramaciotti was the first candidate of a new programme by design chief Leonardo Fioravanti: “All newcomers had to spend a few weeks at each department. It helped me to understand this complex business in record time. But when I first saw the technical drawing of the Lancia Monte Carlo they were working on, it was so detailed, I didn’t understand a thing. And they were tough times. Everybody believed that oil supply would end by the year 2000 and cars would disappear into oblivion. It showed in our work, I guess. Things only became flamboyant again in the 1980s, with cars like Ferrari Testarossa and F40, right when I became Pininfarina’s design director. It was a demanding, yet rewarding era.”

Lorenzo Ramaciotti 4
It was the start of a career that only ended last year, aged 67, when Ramaciotti finally wanted to lessen the pressure. Fiat-Chrysler Automobiles CEO Sergio Marchionne did his best to make him stay: “In 2005, I retired a first time, but I couldn’t refuse when Sergio Marchionne asked me as design director for the Fiat Group two years later. It was a unique opportunity to collaborate with such a visionary man exactly when Fiat and Chrysler got together. Eventually I became special advisor to the CEO for two days a week. It seemed ideal to be involved without the stress. Sadly, it didn’t work out. I could still give my opinion but I wasn’t in charge anymore and they didn’t have to follow my ideas.”

But Ramaciotti is far from bitter that Canadian American Ralph Gilles succeeded him: “It’s old fashioned to expect an Italian at the head of Fiat design. It could also have been somebody from Asia if he were perfect for the job. FCA is an international company, generating most revenue in the US. It cannot act from an Italian perspective any longer.

"Obviously, brands like Alfa Romeo and Maserati have to be ambassadors of Italian design but this doesn’t mean they can’t employ designers from all over the world, they just have to understand Italian culture. Moreover, Ralph is extremely experienced. He’s been Chrysler’s design director way longer than Roberto Giolito has been at Fiat. We didn’t pick him because he used to be CEO of Dodge and SRT – his business side wasn’t important. We wanted him for his design skills and, most crucially, for his coaching abilities. Ralph knows how to motivate others and keep an overview. When Fiat and Chrysler merged, I didn’t need to push the American design team, they already went all out by themselves.”

Lorenzo Ramaciotti 3
An analytical mind with 45 years experience, Ramaciotti has a clear view on Italian car design history: “In the 1950s, when automobiles finally became attainable for the working class, the French, German and English coachbuilders all desperately hung on to the flamboyant prewar designs. Only the Italian coachbuilders developed new design studios and modern pontoon-like bodywork. Pininfarina was especially strong, and car makers from England, France and Germany asked for proposals. When Frua, Michelotti, Bertone, Touring and many others also smartly transferred towards design consultancies, they entirely killed the French, German and English competition. And Italy become the dominant force.”

Sadly, nothings lasts forever: “In the last 20 years, design has become such a strategic factor that car makers can’t leave it in the hands of outsiders anymore. What if Ferrari had stayed loyal to Pininfarina, now it’s taken over by Mahindra from India? Today, all brands run their own design department and that includes the Chinese. Setting up a competent studio probably is the easiest facet of car manufacturing – hiring 100 utterly skilled talents is peanuts compared to the other investments because most designers aren’t very expensive. Pininfarina’s contracts with Peugeot, Ferrari or Honda used to span for years and even decades. I don’t see that happening anymore. Nowadays, independent consultants can only produce ideas for certain demarcated projects, but the manufacturer’s design studio controls the process.”

Lorenzo Ramaciotti 5
Meanwhile, Pininfarina and Bertone also became industrial players, assembling cars for other brands, which eventually backfired to a sickening extend: “Pininfarina should not have invested so massively in the manufacturing side when demand was clearly shrinking. From 2000 to 2005, they constructed four pretty complex cars in parallel: the Mitsubishi CZC, Volvo C70 convertible, the Ford Focus Coupe Cabriolet and the Alfa Brera. To secure these contracts, Pininfarina even had to take a participation in their success. This worsened the situation considerably, because these cars didn’t sell very well. And there was more. Battista Pininfarina was a very strong character as was his son Sergio. He brought Pininfarina to the pinnacle, he was a cavaliere del lavoro, a member of parliament and he presided over the national confederation of the Italian industry. His son Andrea believed he could do the same, as long as his company represented enough billions of euros. So he kept pushing production and sales, probably without keeping an eye on the changing market. This might be Pininfarina’s only mistake, though – they just couldn’t stop the other evolutions. Carmakers have had to cope with an enormous overcapacity forever, while smart robots and intelligent logistics made factories much more flexible. They can produce a mix of models and even low-volume cars, which was typically outsourced to Pininfarina or Bertone. Also, cars have become so extremely complex, highly skilled engineers need to keep a close eye on the manufacturing if they want to guarantee the quality the market expects. If Pininfarina would have adapted earlier to these evolutions they still would have needed to reduce the company, transform into a service provider and get linked to a serious industrial partner. However, the process would have been softer. And less dramatic for the family.”

According to some, Fiat hasn’t done enough to safeguard Bertone or Pininfarina after having all grown successful together, but Ramaciotti disagrees: “Sometimes, Fiat was not even able to protect itself. During Pininfarina’s worst period in 2004, Fiat flirted with bankruptcy too and, truth be told, Fiat always kept some production activity aside for Pininfarina and Bertone, which brought far more revenue than the design assignments they gave to Giugiaro. Sergio Pininfarina, however, wanted to spread the risks and constantly closed deals with GM, Peugeot and others. We tried to work as little as possible for Fiat – it was quite political and, for a long time, I did not find many nice people there. When I suddenly was engaged by Fiat, I really had to adapt to the mentality.”

Lorenzo Ramaciotti 2
Since the wild 1960s and ‘70s, a lot has changed: “This industry became so complex, only a few wealthy companies can afford to produce a new model just because they are in love with it. There’s one big rule for all others: a nice design isn’t enough to justify a 700 million euros investment,” says Ramaciotti as he explains why Fiat made so many alliances with others and that applies to the new Fiat 124 Spider: “It should have been an Alfa Romeo Spider but since the project started, Alfa was managed totally differently. When it was decided to invest big money in its revival, it became key that all Alfas needed to be born in Italy. A Mazda MX5-based spider which was assembled in Japan didn’t fit in any longer. Meanwhile, Lancia has carved out its own niche, as long as the investment in new models is related to the sales potential. Even if Lancia is only distributed in Italy, the Ypsilon is the third bestselling car here. But it doesn’t represent more than 70,000 units yearly. Brands are like people – if there’s a reason to continue, it’ll happen, otherwise, all your actions are artificial. This industry clearly has an emotional side otherwise there wouldn’t be so many brands and models and look how emotional it was when Pontiac, Saab or Oldsmobile died. However, at the end of the day, we all need to make money. And market laws rule.”

And this is why Lorenzo moved to Fiat in the first place: “Consultants like Pininfarina always are outsiders – at best, we could look at the industry through a peep hole. When I could finally see how it really functions in a boardroom at Fiat, I felt much more responsible. For Pininfarina, the involvement is pretty much over once the project is sold to the client. At Fiat, a good design is directly correlated to the company’s health. I mainly learned there that any good striker also requires a talented goalkeeper. Many people contribute significantly to a car’s success or failure, and all aspects need to be perfectly aligned. Good looks are not enough. Next to the Alfas Brera and 159, there are more examples where a nice design was hampered by poor manufacturing, bad engineering, reliability issues, a meagre sales network or whatever else.”

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But while cars come and go, three people left an incredible impression during Ramaciotti’s 45-year career: “Leonardo Fioravanti was my mentor and boss during the first 15 years. As a designer and an engineer, he knew how to combine both. Moreover, he was the first real design manager. He assembled a talented team and understood how to deal with customers. I owe Leonardo a lot. I also rate my boss for the following 17 years very highly: Sergio Pininfarina. As a professional. And as a person. He was serious, gentle, elegant and honest. He was loyal to his principles and never asked anybody to act contrary to his beliefs. He proved that a man can be very successful without being a pirate. And Sergio Marchionne is the smartest and strongest personality I’ve ever met. I don’t care if people say bad things behind his back. Nor does he. He tries to do well for the company. Nothing else matters.”

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No wonder car design isn't living up to its potential. Here is someone that claims to be a "professional" that denigrates the clay. IDIOT!!!

Why do we still use clay models in car design? | Drift

Back in the early 1990’s when Alias-Wavefront was first making a pitch to the automotive design studios, one of their big talking points was how creating digital 3D models would optimize the design process dramatically, since the data could both be used to mill out models as well as be exchanged to the engineering departments for integration with their data.

Well, integration with engineering has fully happened. We had some hiccups with file formats and how surface data was created to be workable for engineers, but all of that got mutually resolved. The process mutated into separate areas for initial 3D surface design development and an area for Class-A single span clean data ready for engineering, all done within Autodesk Alias of course. A true optimization of the design process.

GCM02When Alias first became a big deal, it was generally anticipated that it would at least dramatically reduce the amount of clay models used, if not almost completely eradicate that profession. It seemed inevitable. The creation of digital data was supposed to be done by the designers themselves, since they were best suited to get exactly the design characteristics they intended into their 3D model proposals. It was supposed to be very similar to what was common practice at Mercedes-Benz, where the designers were supposed to create their initial 1/5th scale clay models before the modeling staff touched clay.

It has not happened. In contrast, we now have several new groups for the digital modeling on top of the development of manual clay models, often still in the same way as done way before the digital era. Instead of reducing the design lead time, in most cases it has led to the hiring of a whole new category of people for the digital data creation on top of the existing crew. The clay modeler who actually tried to make the switch from analog to digital are few and far between.

So why?

In my opinion it has a lot to do with management, and management’s lack of creative imagination. Of course, very big budgets are involved, and you can only spend each dollar once, but management with decision power seems to come from non-imaginative educational backgrounds like business schools, accountant areas and sometimes even engineering.

As a result proposals from the design department will be reviewed by people who are challenged to judge sketches and renderings and imagine what a photo-realistically rendered 3D model looks like in real life.

So when the time comes to reserve a budget for milling a full size model from 3D data it’s a hard sell. The proven methodology has worked in the past, so the safest bet is to continue that way. There really is no rhyme or reason to it other than that. Surfaces can be evaluated properly prior to milling, can be made perfectly symmetrical, and can be checked for accuracy by engineering prior to milling. All reasons why using digital models should improve design lead times and costs.

Surprisingly often, we still see companies develop a clay model by hand in parallel to the digital development, and more often than not, find they are different in the end.

Of course every model needs to have the final touch of perfection by subtle manual manipulation, which then is scanned and put back into the digital data, but I am convinced that we could be a lot more efficient in this process if we had decision makers who would trust the opinions of their staff.

GCM24I admit that it might be difficult for people to interpret subtle details surfacing issues on a monitor, which inevitably leads to the fore mentioned manual optimization after milling, but a lot if very close to the way it’s supposed to be from original design intent.

With the recent onslaught of very detailed VR technologies, it is increasingly easy to portray a very realistic portrait of the design proposal, allowing it to be judged in detail up-close as if it were really there. This could allow improvements in the design decision making, but only time will tell.

I wonder how the current youth, those who are used to all technologies and VR, will grow into decision-making positions and finally make full use of what today’s technologies allow in optimizing the design process.



This article was provided by guest contributor, Cornelius Steenstra of Foresee Car Design.

Cor Steenstra is a Dutch born car designer who was trained at the Royal College of Art’s famous transportation design course. Cor has since worked for Volvo, Mercedes-Benz and Mazda before starting his Foresee Car Design consultancy in Europe and California, pioneering the usage of Alias in live demos at the 1994 Geneva International Motor Show. He has been consultant for Porsche, Honda, Hyundai/Kia, Nissan and most other OEM’s throughout the last 22 years, specializing in using Alias and VRED.

 

Mindless drivel by someone that needs to sit quietly in the back of the room.

Jeff

 

There was a real effort in the '90's to eliminate clay. That never happened for a multitude of reasons. While the author has an agenda to push for digital, he's never had to 'put a car together' as it were. It's easy to sit on the sidelines and tell everyone how things ought to be. Having said that, digital is an integral part of the design process & a valuable tool.........however, it ain't the only tool.

 

Clay = the ultimate form realization checker.

 

Didn't know whether to laugh or cry at this line from Ramaciotti:
"hiring 100 utterly skilled talents is peanuts compared to the other investments because most designers aren’t very expensive." !

One of the issues in architecture these days, and I wonder if this comes into play in auto design, is that with CAD and Photoshop the clients (and often management) think that changing a design is just a press of a button. Where once upon a time a design would be carefully considered and checked before the modeler started work, now CAD models are worked up very early and then just tweaked endlessly in PS till they get the look they want. Sometimes, when they then try to make construction documents to achieve what's in the rendering, it is near impossible due to the fudging that has gone unnoticed over dozens of tweaks. I actually don't believe the modern techniques have reduced design time by anything - what I see is just the same amount of time gets used up in 'fiddling' instead of getting things right first time. Hand drawn renderings (or clay models) were very expensive to produce so weren't used frivolously; PS appeals to the 'let's try this' school of design.

 

Yes there's a certain truth in your comments.
You're correct in the assumption that management thinks,'let's make this change........you just push a button, right?'
Whether Alias or hands on, most non design management individuals have very little appreciation for the time it takes to makes changes, clay or digital.
The thinking is if it'd being developed in the computer, it can't take very long
Ramaciotti is correct, in the grand scheme of things, designers are cheap. But it's how they're utilized by management/the client that makes the difference
And yes with PS these days, changes can be made real time in reviews........it's getting the engineering resources to back up the changes that causes problems down the road

 

Thanks John. Do you also find the quality of the reviewers has declined as well? I find these days a lot less solid quantitative comment and a lot more of the "well I don't really like blue..." subjective comments.

 

I have a few unpolished thoughts on this:

The BMW i3 looks horrific, right down there with the Aztek for cars that never should have been approved for production looking the way they do, but it definitely stands out. BMW appear to have given the car quite a bit of performance, with everyone I know who has been in one (I haven't been in one yet) reporting that it's surprisingly fast. The constant refrain I hear is:

"It's hideous and electric, but it's fast!"​

If i3 technology had been put into a 1-series or 3-series, it might be harder for the company to publicize what it's doing with the technology. Imagine:

"New 3-series model, and it's electric!"

"An electric 3-series? That'll be slow and not as good as the existing ICE version. That'll never sell. Not interested."​

And it won't get talked about. Nobody talks about a VW e-Golf because it's just a Golf with a more awkward powertrain. Everyone I know who has test driven the i3 did so out of morbid curiosity that BMW had made such a radical departure from building cars that exuded German sophistication, dignity, and underlying sportiness. So the design goals for a lot of electric vehicles such as the BMW i3 must have been to make an impact. Doesn't necessarily have to be positive impact, just get people's attention so that they start talking about the car and therefore start talking about the technology. With traditional cars all trying to make an impact by being the most pleasing to the eye, the easiest way to make an impact with a non-traditional vehicle is to deliberately set out to produce an eyesore.

In a few years, if the conversation turns to "If only they'd put that drivetrain in a nicer car like a 3-series..." then I suspect we'll start to see those too. The tide must be turning a bit, as we're seeing hybrids with the BMW 3-series eDrive:

BMW 3 Series Sedan : BMW eDrive​

At the moment, the type of people who tend to buy all-electric vehicles are the Eco Warrior type. They want you to notice their car and they want to go on a rant about emissions, the environment, and how much of a difference they're making. (Just don't mention the environmental impact of lithium mining to make their batteries) So, a hideous and highly noticeable car gets the conversation going and helps the self righteous feel important. They want an ugly in-your-face Eco Car, so that's what's selling at the moment.

At least, that's my impression.

All the best,
Andrew.
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My own personal opinion, without any data, would have me say that for as long as I've been involved in the car design gig for over 40 yrs, not much has changed as far as the review process and the decision making process. Generally, you have non designers weighing in on various aspects of any given design solution, with a preponderance of statements: "I don't like it/that" etc. The 'why' is generally lost. But this is really no different than any of the creative endeavors whether it's cinema, literature, art, or music, etc.

The old line that "opinions are like belly buttons.......everyone has one" is forever true. The difficult part is getting viewers to elaborate on the 'why' which as you can probably surmise can be difficult at best. It's very subjective.

Because the creative solutions in art, music, design are not a science, there will forever be the " i don't like it" commentaries. I know it's not accurate, but I would usually ask myself about the person making the comments, then think about that person's credibility, than not. Many reviewers think they're experts, the reality is very few have the credibility to weigh in on the creative aspects of a given project. So you listen politely, and weigh all the factors and move on.

I like to tell my design class that there are no right and wrong answers, some answers are just better than others.....

That's what makes creative endeavors so much fun..

 

Well done Andrew!!!

One thing about the i3 is that you can't ignore it, but my personal belief is they went too far with the the desire to look 'different'
I give them a great deal of credit for wanting to 'push the design envelope', but I wonder about the appeal factor from the public
As long as they sell in the numbers they desired, it's a moot point, as long as the buyers are happy

 

I agree with Andrew's premise that this group of electric cars exist so their owners can have a badge of honor. A Prius powertrain in a Carolla would not have been successful because it didn't scream to the world how that the owner was a rabid tree hugger. To some degree I suspect these people also want to also portray a disdain for the concept of the car.

Tesla doesn't have to be different since the entire brand is built on the rabid tree hugger premise. In other words they don't need to create a clear differentiation from the rest of the cars of a particular manufacturer.

 

John, thanks for your reply and lucky you! In my industry (5star hotels) the old style 'technical officers' who would review designs based on cost, practicality, compliance with brand standards etc have been replaced with 'design managers' who are basically kids with the latest magazines to hand and the aforementioned "I don't like blue..." comments. It's pretty much killed the profession for me. Sad...

 

Design managers, huh?.....

 

very cool Porsche:

Design Story: Porsche Mission E Concept ? Form Trends

 

Lincoln Navi concept from NY suggests they're still cribbing other designs. It looks a lot like a Land Rover from the front wheels back.

Funny that the discussion here has focused lately on Photoshop design...
Seems someone at Ford has been listening!

 

interesting you bring that vehicle up
we were just having a conversation about the Nav here at school today........not very positive I have to say

on another note,when did 2 dimensional looking wheels become the 'it' thing?
it's a troubling design trend lately as far as I'm concerned
they look flat like mockups instead of showing the wheel depth, the designs have dark painted ports with machined faces.........not very exciting IMO
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and then there's that 'Stairway to Heaven' thing.....
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Not sure that Led Zep could let Lincoln use that for their promo song but Lincoln probably would like to.

Next up will be motorized chair to go up stairs.

Wonder if Lincoln should incorporate into their stair system a rose petal dispenser as people walk up.

 

ya just never know.....