Question: 964 3.6 turbo Flachbau vs 959

Ok everyone. I have an interesting question which I would like answers from all you learned car people. If you've been following the Amelia Islands auctions you would have seen that both a 964 turbo s Flachbau and a 959 were auctioned and sold. The price differential was negligible between these 2 cars at this auction.
So I am interested in hearing views from you people, as I am a bit perplexed, and would like you to tell me which is cooler in your view and which perhaps do you think should and can generate more awe inspiring sentiments in the classic world and ultimately of course which would you want to own?
Jerry Seinfelds 1994 Flachbau 964 Turbo 3,6(he only owned it for about 2 years)with 20k kilometers went for $1017500 all in and the 1988 959 with 29k kilometers went for $1020000. Both were apparently in great shape I've been told.
And also which one was the better bought and will make the better financial buy long term?
Interested to hear views....

 

959 better bought imho...disclaimer, BOTH were well sold.

 

Interesting price points.

I looked at the 959, 964 Turbo S Flachbau, and 964 Turbo S Leichtbau ("Lightweight") quite a few years ago when I was looking to buy into this segment/era.

IMHO, the 959 stands head and shoulders above the other two with respect to importance for the Porsche heritage. Many of its innovations are found in the current cars. However, even then, I was very concerned about maintenance issues, you really need need a specialist to maintain the car, especially if one wants to keep the car in perfect condition.

I did end up buying the Leichtbau, for the concept (light weight RS philosophy), the performance (at one point it was the fastest production car, if I remember correctly), and the looks (I like the traditional look better than the Flachbau look). Plus, the car I found was in truly exemplary condition, with about 14K kilometres then. I continue to be very happy with the car - not a single issue after many years of ownership, and it looks and drives as if brand new.

No question the Flachbau presents a much more unique look, and a more comfortable, touring oriented drive. Some will prefer it.

 

Carlos, this is great perspective.

In my opinion, you purchased an acutely unique automobile that was built with a very singular purpose. That being said, historically 'rara avis' roughly translates to 'mucho dinero'. Cheers

 

I think the valuation is more about the number made...if memory serves me correctly there were only 39 US Market Flachbau's made (79 total ?) vs over 280 959's. Even the 959 is felt to be the more iconic of the two, the rarity of the flachbau evens it up, at least from a demand/market perspective.

 

Its interesting how rarity seems to come into the equation. I mean there are a lot of "rare" cars in the world that just don't cost anywhere near £1000000. And ok this 964 basically has a slant nose and maybe a different rear spoiler. And? The point is that otherwise this is a 964 turbo S-which don't get me wrong is a great car. But the 959 was such a technical tour de force when it came out having many different unique and innovative features and materials. Even 6 years later when the Flachbau came out the Flachbau doesn't even begin to to come close to the 959 in pretty much any respect you care to mention. Ok they made 76 Flachbau as opposed to 288 959's but as I said a lot of "rare" cars don't make 1 million bucks.

As you can tell its clear imo that I don't see how having basically a different flatter front end materially changes a 964 turbo to make it equal in value terms to the huge contribution the 959 gave the automotive world.

And for those that mention the argument that the Flachbau is rarer than the 959 hence perhaps why it fetched the price it did, my original question stands: which is cooler in your view and which perhaps do you think should and can generate more awe inspiring sentiments in the classic world and ultimately of course which would you want to own? I feel that a poll of the answers to these question from classic car enthusiasts should help me understand whether the Flachbau's price was justified or not. Its also perhaps interesting that Jerry auctioned off the Flachbau but seemed to keep his 959. Maybe that also says something.

Oh well I guess maybe we'll see in a few years time who made the better buy.

 

959 without a doubt, it's an icon.

 

Great insight into what you bought. And of course in any given circumstance people will look at the individual conditions, history of the car before deciding. Moreover individual preference will ultimately come into the equation. In this OP however the mileage condition were apparently similar.
On another note, I will say to you that in fact the 959 is a much more comfortable drive than the 964 Flachbau by virtue of its sophisticated suspension.

 

Stradman, thank you for the insight. I have been up close with the 959 several times, but I have never had an extended drive in one. Interesting that it drives more comfortably than the Flachbau.

 

No question, for me its the 959. A true icon. I recently spent the better part of 2 yrs searching for one of the original 29 Ruf VIN CTR2...there were 29 made. Again, if I had to trade the CTR2 in for a 959, I would have to face the probability that it would be much harder to find an original CTR2 for sale down the road if I want to replace it. Would be hard pressed to turn a 959 down but that thought does enter the equation for me. Maybe its because I've now driven the CTR2 and I'm even more blown away by it. I think rarity of a car is a factor that brings valuations of cars closer, that in individual comparison may be miles apart in tech or historic significance. Collector mentality will always covet the hard to find, that holds true for art/coins/cars anything. Hope you are great my friend !

 

Great car the CTR2 Jas! Really hope you land one soon. I recently purchased a 993 RS M003 and that car is just so connected it's not funny. Its hardwired into you. So many sensations. Fab car.

 

Your initial question of which can and should generate more "awe inspiring sentiments" - I think the 959 is much more important in both Porsche's and the broader automotive world's historical timeline. It foreshadowed so much of what was to come for Porsche and was years ahead of its time. I can tell you that driving one today, it still feels quite modern and it is more than 30 years since it was designed! I also think the classic world recognizes it more readily and holds it in the supercar category, whereas the Flachbau is merely a very special Porsche.

They are completely different cars to drive, the 959 being AWD of course and much heavier, but also with more power. The Flachbau is a single turbo RWD, so it is more challenging and dare I say, old school. It also feels smaller from the cockpit, although not by much and here they are rather similar.

To your further question of who got the better buy - the 959 actually sold for $1,120,000 all in. Classic silver with a special order full black interior, very sharp combination. Mileage at basically 30,000kms is high for U.S. collectors and that really held it back. There have been quite a few 959's that have sold here in the past two years, almost all with lower mileage and I think this car underperformed last weekend simply because the market has absorbed as many as it can in the short-term. The Flachbau is the first to appear at auction here in recent years (meaning, at modern market levels) and thus is fresher, but at the same time, not a top collector-level car because it had been repainted and Polar Silver is a rather dull color. I think it sold market correctly without a Seinfeld premium attached to it.

Years from now, finding great examples of either model will be that much more difficult and both will be much more expensive than this past weekend. If you could only buy one today, it really depends upon your collection and how the car fits in, also what your intent is for the car. The 959 fits in better with a broad supercar collection and/or an extensive Porsche collection, while the Flachbau is more likely to be found only in the latter.

Both are rare, unique and interesting cars for sure.

 

Thanks for that quite balanced comment. It all makes sense of course and I agree by and large, although finding very low mileage 959's is getting somewhat more difficult. Simply because the car is so useable and owners find it quite easy and comfortable to rake in the miles. As opposed to Fcars, I also think Porsche collectors, by and large, can and do tolerate somewhat higher mileage cars for their collections compared to Fcar collectors. So I think with Porsches, 15-20k miles is still probably regarded as collector quality, again for the majority probably, whereas perhaps Fcar collectors that figure is more like 5-10k.

 

The issue with mileage is a relative one. When you get into the Flachbau-level 911s, quite a few were essentially bubble-wrapped since new, so even a 12k mile example like the Seinfeld car is 'higher' mileage. Same with the 959s, 993TTS, and most other modern, "special" 911s. In that respect, I don't think what is considered collectible mileage is all that different between contemporary Porsches and FCars.

 

Not sure I entirely agree, as I know a lot of owners of the aforementioned cars(apart from a Flachbau) where the owners have used their cars quite regularly. I think quite simply Porsches have(had) a reputation for being more robust than respective Fcars and so people have not been afraid to use them much more readily. Also easier to get in and out of a 911 than some Fcars making the decision to use em' easier!
Fcars for many are kept for more "special" occasions. Of course I am generalising here and there are always exceptions on either side.

 

And I generally agree, with the exceptions being the very special and rare 911s, such as the flachbau, etc.

Original owners and collectors recognized the importance of minimizing the mileage of these rare editions... This is reflected in the fact that the Seinfeld Flachbau was considered 'higher mileage', which in turn limited the number of buyers and ultimately the price achieved...

Stretching it a little bit - A car like a 964 3.6T, or '89 Speedster with 25k miles is considered 'nice', but those cars aren't remarkable, only because there are so many sub-10k mile cars. The same applies to most every special edition FCar, PCar, etc... What's considered low mileage and high mileage is always sliding scale relatively based on other examples.

 

I was thinking exactly about this today!

I owned a 964 3.6 Turbo and now a 959, and to be honest the 959 feels just more special, more advanced and it is faster, it definitely attracts much much more attention at any event you show up with it, no question.
To me the Flachbau 964 is just a very cool option on a somewhat regular production Turbo, but the 959 is a special one off car, the only 911 based Supercar and of great importance in the history of Porsche and the automobile in general.
To me the 959 is undervalued and the 964 has reached its peak, they just can not be worth the same.

Many people are scared of the maintenance on 959's but once they are properly sorted by someone who knows what they are doing and are driven regularly they give no problems, I drove mine for 800 miles in one day last month, both highway and city traffic with no issues.

 

Agreed. Of course I will disclose that I am bias a bit as I have owned a 959 for the last 7 years. Provided you use them regularly(even just to start it up and warm it in) there are usually no issues. Any horror stories are almost always associated with deferred maintenance or just having the car stored up and never used. Then yes you will be hit with large bills to recommission. I service mine annually and the bill has never been more than 2k with average about 1.5k. That's peanuts I guess for running what is effectively a supercar.

 

How often do people recognize the 959 when you drive it in public? Do people just assume it's "another" 911?

 

959 is an iconic supercar which will be worth much more over the long term. a 94 turbo S is likely part of a current bubble crop of cars could be worth a lot less in the long term, pure marketing nonsense. (I have owned both, actually my turbo S was even more rare as it was a package car)