The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Jim has never said all of those components came directly from 0846. His car is built up from the spares that Piper received from Ferrari when he purchased the P4 program on the remains of 0846's chassis. I'm sure that some of these parts were removed from 0846 when it was stripped but that is not really relevant. Most of the parts are genuine Ferrari pieces and as they were raced, pieces and parts were moved around between the cars. The body sections are quickly and easily removed and can be readily swapped between cars. Engines and transmissions were swapped around between cars as they were freshened and in one case it is pretty obvious that chassis serial numbers were swapped. Bottom line is these were race cars and there was no effort to maintain continuity of any one cars set of parts at the time and it really isn't important now.

Jim has made the point that the basis of a car is the chassis and that is what determines its lineage. You can legitimately call this car a "bitsa" since it is clearly resurrected from the found chassis parts of 0846 and spare Ferrari parts including a correct P4 engine and transmission.

This car ceased to exist for a long time and was put back together from spares and it is what it is. At the same time, most of the chassis is the chassis that crossed the finish line at Daytona in 1967 and that is to be celebrated. The careful restoration of the car in Jim's hands, to be as correct as possible to the way it ran at Daytona is also to be applauded. Because Ferrari chose to scrap the car after Le Mans it is has a clouded history, but I'm ok with that.

While the car is a bitsa, it's not a "recreation", since it is made up, for the most part original pieces on the remains of the original chassis.

 

Now you are just picking MF's words as they fit with your view unfortunately. Paul is completely right, one part of the chassis was recognized by MF as original to 0846, but the rest of the chassis as it presents today is very different from the way MF describes the original. This fact shall not be ignored.

"....aside from stating clearly that Jim's car is the P4 that won Daytona..."

This is simply wrong on many levels.

 

Nice comparison, but who wears the whistle? Just watched it last night like we have done on every Long Friday for decades. Peace!

 

No where does MF say Jims example is the car that raced at Daytona. He only says that parts of the front of the chassis from that car he recognises in Jims car.

He also clearly states that the work on the rear end was not carried out by Ferrari and could only have been carried out after the original chassis was consigned to the scrap heap, ie after Ferraris involvement with the chassis ended.

He also confirms that the original 0846 was fully converted to P4 spec, not partially converted.

Jims photos of the rear of his car show a p3 style chassis crudely converted to take a p4 engine, not a p4 spec chassis converted to take a p3 engine.

So by your accounts if another P4 appeared with a rear end that MF did recognise as also being part of the car that raced at Daytona, and that car was built up to p4 spec using original components, then that also would be another 0846?

Remember that Piper has lots and lots of p3/p4 components still, is now rather elderly and that at some point in the future that rather valuable collection will be owned by someone else, what if the original Ferrari modified rear end of 0846 is in that collection or even maybe in one of his other P4s?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_hlMK7tCks

 

Au contraire - he states it explicitly in the letter to Jim on March 14, attached in post #7449 - http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/144567219-post7449.html

"After studying the P3/P4 Chassis in the car owned today by you I confirm that this is the original P3 Chassis that I modified in December 1966 to accept a P4 engine and that this original modified chassis then went on to win the 1967 24 hours Of Daytona."

It couldn't be more explicit that that - Jim's car is the original chassis that won the 1967 Daytona race. Fact.

After seeing that letter, Steve's response here was to claim that Ing. Forghieri must have signed that letter in error!!! Unfortunately for Steve's argument, Ing Forghieri's subsequent correspondence went on to confirm in greater detail that Jim's car is the race winning car that was numbered as 0846 before Ferrari scrapped the damaged frame. As I said a few posts back, it seems that Ing Forghieri has chosen his words with great care, and that March 14 statement has been justified and clarified.

 

The very short letter, penned by who?, and in English which is not MFs first language.

The longer letter a page or so back from here in both English and Italian is the recent definitive detailed account from MF. No where in that, in either language does he state Jims car is the Daytona car, but does say frontal elements are associated with that car.

MF does say though it is not 0846, but is a P4.

We are going around in circles anyway, lets see if MFs involvement opens up doors now for Jims car to be included in events it is currently excluded from, that will be the true mark of whether the Ferrari/Classic car community has changed its view on the matter, and I imagine that's all Jim is concerned about now.

 

Mauro's English skills seem good enough in communication with others that I'm certain he would have been able to understand the simple letter he signed for Jim. Why would anyone sign, and then pose for a photo with, a letter they didn't understand?

All the best,
Andrew.

 

Can someone, in simple terms, explain the implications of this car being a p3/4 or a p4? It seems to be one of those things, so what's the purpose of further argument?

 

I'm not sure why we are discussing the short letter any longer. The document in post #7535 is a much more in-depth explanation that covers all details and was written by MF in Italian to eliminate any translation errors. That document surely supersedes the short letter.

The short letter, read on its own without additional information, appears to be a bit of a contradiction (since MF does not favor calling the car 0846), but if you reread that letter after reading the detailed document, everything in the short letter is accurate and there is nothing misleading about it (it simply doesn't address what the car should be called (regarding SN)).

 

The problem with the letter is that Ing. Forghieri confirms that after studying the chassis in the car owned by Mr Glickenhaus today, that this is the original P3 chassis that was modified by Ing. Forghieri in December, 1966 to accept a P4 engine and that this original modified P3 chassis then went on to win the 1967 24 Hours of Daytona but the chassis as studied by Ing. Forghieri today, the same day he has studied it, does not have those modifications that he made to accept a P4 engine, as confirmed by Ing. Forghieri elsewhere many times including the present time, but not in the letter.

 

Do we know the full history of the car between when the chassis was recovered and Jim bought it? Assuming it was raced during that period, it seems like a lot could have happened to explain the non-standard engine mounts -- maybe a P3 engine was fitted for a period of time or that area was damaged and the subsequent handmade P4 mounts were different than factory.

If it is definitive that the front of the chassis is original, the point about the rear seems moot. It would be interesting to know information was used to definitively say the front part was the Daytona chassis (e.g. is there an ID unique to that chassis?)

 

We've heard from Jim Glickenhaus and Ing. Forghieri.
We need to hear from David Piper, right? Or is that impossible?

 

Don't wait up...

 

I agree entirely. IIRC It was most certainly fitted with a P3 engine while owned by Piper, who won't comment anywhere, anytime on #0846 for his own reasons.

The semantic arguments seem more than a little pointless, ala #0858, this car will never and can never be a pure example of a P4 series so arguments about which bit was modified, when and where etc. go nowhere because Jim has only said it contains the remains of #0846 and MF 'seems' to have agreed with that.

Paul500 posted - "Remember that Piper has lots and lots of p3/p4 components still, is now rather elderly and that at some point in the future that rather valuable collection will be owned by someone else, what if the original Ferrari modified rear end of 0846 is in that collection or even maybe in one of his other P4s" Then I am sure Jim will buy the other P4 and combine the two, possibly just to annoy some people lol. Seriously though the same happened with at least two Jaguar D-Types that were built out of one car and selling them separately and at least XKD530 has been rebuilt into one car with all authentic componentry....... Not sure I can imagine when it would have been logical for Piper to have spent the very large sums to build an entirely new rear chassis assembly and fit it if it already had a usable one already attached, engine mounts would have been cheap to modify BUT an entire new rear chassis?

 

See also photos in post #7439.
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Ing. Forghieri told me he saw the car of Mr Glickenhaus long ago in the United States. He has not physically inspected/scrutinised the chassis in the metal.

His 6 point document dated February 23rd, 2016 is based on documentation that's been made available to date, not a physical examination of the chassis. I would like to know what documentation was made available for Ing. Forghieri to conclude what he has. He sent me a screen shot of the 0846 barchetta page with the piece at the top missing about the chassis being a replica. The following is the missing bit:

"In July 2002 James Glickenhaus bought a car from David Piper that both he and David thought was a replica P4 built on a replica chassis to P4 chassis blueprints that had been"

There is so much misinformation on that page that I can't help wondering if Ing. Forghhieri has come to his conclusion from this misinformation.

I have asked Ing. Forghieri what he recognises on Mr Glickenhaus's chassis that identifies it as the car he modified in December 1966 and the 1967 24 Hours of Daytona winner as well as what he modifified slightly at the front end.

 

I wish Mr Piper would speak up. As well a a few others. I personally can't make heads or tails regarding this car. I just wish those who know would speak up and produce documentation one way or another.

Either way Jim owns my all out dream car. And it's a beauty, regardless of the controversy surrounding it. I would drive the wheels off the thing rain or shine.

 

The engine is not a correct P4 tipo 237 and the transmission is a replica made by John Hajduk which he copied from the 603R transmission from 0854 and with some genuine Ferrari internals that came from the estate of Herbert Muller.

 

Geezzzzz give it a break.. There isn't going to be another chassis "surfacing" with the "back half" of 0846... The part of the chassis that is modified is just the very rear section from the motor mounts back. The rear "ring" frame around the transmission is most likely the original part, just the tubes where the rear engine mount are different. Most of the chassis is from 0846 and there are repairs that were evident in some of the tubes aft of the cockpit that are consistent with repairs done to 0846 after the Targa incident. People who are talking about the "back half" of the chassis not being original are grasping at straws.

Piper isn't talking and probably will take his secrets with him to his grave. The car has an unknown history between when it was "scrapped" by the factory after the fire at Le Mans and it was most likely salvaged by Tom Mede and then sold to Piper as best we can piece together. We know that for a time Piper had a 3 liter engine in it that would have required the modifications to the chassis that are evident in Jim's car.

Steve, I said it had a Ferrari engine in it and it is as close as Jim could make it with the available parts and yes he had to make a new gearbox case but the internals are spare pieces. It is what it is and to his credit Jim has made all of these differences public so picking on this or that is splitting hairs. When Jim got the car it had an earlier gearbox in it and he had to make some parts to get a correct gearbox as the pieces he needed didn't exist.

Steve and the rest of the 0846 "deniers" now want to try to figure out how much of the frame is original.. This has become a huge bore. Now that MF has made their arguments moot they want to start picking the car apart looking for which piece of this "bitsa" is correct and which piece crossed the finish line at Daytona when the answer is probably not much and I'm ok with that since it has all been disclosed.

 

The framework on Jim's chassis around the gearbox is different to that on the original 0846. This was discussed in this thread and pictures proved the differences.

You said Jim's car had a correct P4 engine and gearbox. It does not. You also said Jim has made it public about making the new gearbox case to his credit implying that Jim is upfront about everything. There is no mention of the replica 603R casing in his thread devoted to these gearboxes. See here: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/393791-p3-p3-4-412p-gearboxes.html

Jim did not/omitted to post Ing. Forghieri's earlier 6 point document in Italian and English dated the 23rd of February, 2016. I posted it after Ing. Forghieri sent it to me to clarify questions I had. Instead, Jim via Wax posted the later short letter dated the 14th of March, 2016 which more suits how Jim wants his car/chassis perceived-without the negative information about the non Ferrari/some other outfit modifications and the number 0846 ceasing to exist and that it cannot be designated 0846.

 

The theory is that Piper doesn't want to admit that he unknowingly sold Jim '0846', right? I wonder, if over the years, Jim's '0846' must have come up in discussion with his close friends. John Collins maybe? I have this thought that 5 or 10 years after Piper passes, someone tells the story. No rush. I'm sure this thread will still be going strong.

 

Actually Ing. Forghieri has actually proved that I was not wrong at all. I was actually right about the non satisfactory and poor arrangement of the way the modifications were executed to mount the P4 (or 312 F1) engine on Jim's chassis. It was Jim who was wrong about these mods being the main proof in identifying his chassis as 0846. That said, by the same reasoning and because of the new information/new identifying aspect from Ing. Forghieri I must be wrong about these unsatisfactory mods proving Jim's chassis is not 0846.

However, what it is that Ing. Forghieri recognises on the front end of the chassis he modified slightly to identify it as the 1967 24 Hours of Daytona winner he has yet to clarify. I am sincerely looking forward to learning what it is and I hope Ing. Forghieri will oblige and share this information with us all.

 

Why didn't Jim post Ing. Forghieri's 6 point document in English and Italian dated the 23rd of February, 2016 if he didn't want to hide anything?