The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

The difference between a P4 and a 412 is the top of the engine.
Factory ran injection and customer cars were carbed (or, the reverse??).
The blocks are the same series.......

Still I think this is a simplification.

Someone recap the VINs of the P3s, 0846 was unique in it's use in development.

So, no not ALL P4s are "made from a P3".
It's the reverse, the P3s were abandoned and new frames made for the larger motor blocks.
That''s the origin of the whole "P4 drawings" position.

 

There's nothing as blood-curdling as a screaming rabbit.

5 P3 - All 1966
Became
2 P3
2 P3/412P
1 P3/4

P3 & P3/412P - 2412 mm
P3/4 & P4 - 2400 mm

P3/4 has P4 Engine, Pedal Box, Susp front & rear, etcyada-etcyada-etcyada. 0846 is Not a DP 900x. It's the real thing. Recognize, B's!


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Not much correct info above or in Tex's confused post. Not got time to correct it. I will say P3s never had a 2412mm wheelbase including 0846 when it was a P3. P3 = 2400mm wheelbase. The only cars that had the 2412mm wheelbase were the P3/412P and 412P cars when they had the ZF5DS gearbox installed and reverted to 2400mm when they finally got the Ferrari made P4 Tipo 603R gearboxes.

 

My understanding also, it would be the same in French: "la version italienne est celle qui fait foi”: “The Italian version is the one that makes faith”, more or less in English “is binding”, “has implications”, “can be used as a proof”.
We must keep in mind that Mauro Forghieri has been commissioned as an expert by the courts in at least one very important case (the 1994 accident at Imola that caused the death of Ayrton Senna).
I have no doubts that he knows exactly what his writings imply when he says “la versione italiana sia quella che fa fede". It mean that this is a statement that he is ready to defend, to the exact limits of what is written, no more and no less.
So to me this is the most important letter, this is the exact limits of what he is ready to say about the car.

As you are Italian, can you confirm my understanding of: "la tua vettura non puo percio essere designata come #0846": "your car cannot therefore be designated #0846".
Which is a subtle way to say what we know from the beginning: officially the chassis/car has been considered as "destroyed", THEREFORE your car cannot be designated 0846" (leaving a door open: had the number not been crossed from the list, then it could be indeed called 0846?...)

Grazie.

 

+ 330; out of true respect, let's not pester him anymore.
However, let's not forget that he did so many things on so many cars, that he was not alone on the P4 project (the team was seven engineers), that he probably was not here on the spot when the car was repaired, etc...so he may simply not remember, or not know more, and not been able to say more than what he has said. He was/is a Genius, but is human after all.
Rgds

 

Yes, the Italian version of his February 23rd letter (and its English translation) do not say anything about identifying J.G cars as a P3 from its front: that came from other documents.

And, to state it again, Mauro Forghieri indeed says in that letter that:
- "P4s were routinely built from P3s chassis"; and he uses plural, meaning "more than one". -he says further on to JG: "your car is a P4 built on a P3 chassis"; and "your car includes original part of this chassis [0846]".

Rgds

 

Thanks for the knowledge.

 

the necessary attention to MF exact italian wording is missing. discard the english version. cheers. clemente

 

See my post #7878, preceeding page.

Rgds

 

*4. Ritengo che parti originali di quel telaio…siano attualmente montati sulla vettura in tuo possesso.*

have a good weekend. cheers. clemente

 

I would risk a translation, with all due reserves, etc...
"I believe that original parts of this chassis…are indeed fitted on the car you own" ??

Rgds

 

I believe this is more (being picky) accurate:

"I believe that the original parts of that chassis ... are currently mounted on the car in your possession"

 

Why did he not just say original chassis? and has specifically stated "parts of the original chassis"?

There has to be a reason he carefully chose such words as even with the "modified by others" rear section to allow both engines to be installed, if that is all that he believed was not original on Jims chassis then the vast majority would still be original 0846 and surely MF would have just said original Daytona winning chassis with a rear end modified by others, post Le Mans.

 

Possibly, because OFFICIALLY 0846 did not exist. It seems to have been rescued in whole or part.

Perry

 

attualmente = in french: actuellement, ce moment. cheers. clemente

 

che parti originali di quel telaio = that original parts of that frame. cheers. clemente

 

it is very difficult to translate the word ritenere (ritengo = primus singularis praesentia) into english in correct manner. what it makes it even more difficult is the use of the subjunctive siano (terzis pluralis praesentia coniunctivus ) together with word ritengo. cheers. clemente

 

attention please: point 4 does not state *P4* in the italian language ! cheers. clemente

 

Up to the edit described above, Steve had a valid point that the more detailed letter was being suppressed at the same time that the abbreviated letter was being promoted. The updated Wiki version, explicitly stating disagreement with the disqualification of 0846 as the car's identity, corrects that issue. There would have been less controversy if that point of disagreement (which IMO, assuming the chassis is 0846, is entirely reasonable) had been made clear from the start.

If the chassis, as stated in the letter(s), is truly that of 0846, then I think a prudent person would say that the existence of the chassis trumps the paperwork cancelling of 0846 from the books. If it was Ferrari who unexpectedly stumbled upon the original 0846 chassis in an old warehouse, I don't (personally) think there is any question that they would reverse the paperwork, rebuild 0846, and identify it as 0846.

Very interesting point regarding the translation, but point 6 describes it as a P4 in both languages, so it seems like just a translation error in point 4 unless I am missing something.

 

the show must go on. cheers. clemente

 

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Quite fitting that Nino Vaccarella wheeled, isn't it?


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They are old friends, Jim having purchased his 208GTB, that was given to him by Enzo.

Very fitting, indeed!
Jesse is probably in the 208, as a chase car.....Forza!!!