Boxers gone from hot to cold?

Dear all

Following the latest auction at RM Sothebys where none of the 3 Boxers (365BB, 512BB & 512BBi) had bids near the lower estimate (and not sold). Without knowing the 3 cars condition in details, then even the price estimates seemed fair, but none the less none of the were sold.

See prices here: Results - Monaco 2016 | Classic Car Auctions | RM Sotheby's

Has the market turned again for these cars? - or was it just a bad day. PS I am aware that other cars at this auction didn't sell or sell well. But just interesting that none of the 3 boxers did sell at all.

What is you view on todays market price for "good" boxers (365BB/512BB/512BBI)?

BR
ABO

 

owners seem to be asking a lot or have very high expectations. maybe cars are trading at higher numbers outside the auctions? or...maybe the market has fallen as you suggest?

 

I just looked at the cars. Using the 81 and 82's as examples, the 81 is a driver in need of a lot of attention and it has BBi wheels! The correct wheels are $10K alone if you can find a set (I have a spare set but thats not the point ). The injected car is also a driver and the expected prices are simply frenzy pricing. Both cars are still worth a lot of money just not the expected price range. Put a platinum level resto up for sale and see what happens, problem is there aren't any.

The 365 seats are wrong, tires are wrong, mechanically it looks like caca. So all three have expensive issues.

 

Newman: +1, all part of the maturing process of classics. Examples such as the '81 are interesting only to people who have such incorrect items and/or the willingness to sink in their money, or even better, their time and skill - but not at top dollar prices considering the work and parts needed.
The '82, looks can be deceiving? It looked pretty good at first glance from the pictures, I do see a number of issues with the interior and the outside looks like at least the black has had a recent respray.
365 looks decent, tires yes, but small thing imho. Interior why was that changed? The lower parts recently painted, hmm good and bad, that could hide bigger problems. Mechanicals are difficult to judge against. It looks like how I would expect a mechanically unrestored car to look like. Considering the age, unless it has documented work yes there will be an issue or two.

Interesting vehicles but not top dollar indeed.

 

Here is what I see. Asking the equivalent of $350-400k for a BBI seems a reach, that 2015 frenzy prices for a good car and these ones had some needs.

We also saw a 330GTC selling for 481K Euro, that must be quite a fall as these cars were supposedly pushing $900k recently. Daytonas, one sold recently in the low 600K range, yet not too long ago nearly any daytona was well above 700K, and many were 850k.

So the car market has definatly softened or recorrected by 10-20%. Some exeptional one of a kind items like really low mileage or truly great restorations still fetch close on top dollar. I think we all know a somewhat tired BBI is going to take 50-100K to put right assuming it does not need a full resto, paint mtor redone etc, so one can do the math pretty simply.


A good and correct 512 boxer with few needs is probably around $290-340K all day long depending on. A fully correct car with really low mileage can probably fetch any type of price depending on two bidders because there logic is where will you find anotehr, and a stunningly restored car over $400k, in fact we have seen recently a shiney but not stunningly restored car fetch over 400k.

Some buyers are educated, others buy paint and odo readings.
Spring 2014 people were estatic when boxers broke 200K.
Sheehan once said boxers were sale proof. Now for the high 200s to low 300s there is strong demand, I think thats pretty good and realistic.

There was an expolsion in ferrari prices, and now sanity prevails. In that 3-4 year period Boxers re-indexed from used ferraris to bonafide classics, prices went up what 200% and have now settled down at somewhere between a 150-200% rise of their low $100K base.

My rule of thumb is that Tr is more or less 40-50% of a Boxer and a boxer is more of less 40-505 of a daytona. If daytonae were 50% of a 275 that would be something, maybe 275's will come down. For sure over time all of the above will re-index up again. The car market seems to run in 10 year cycles, if this past cycle has ended with prices only down 20% of peak ask thats pretty remarkable compared to the hype up/crash prices before, look at 89/90.

The CT market is also clearly softer, with the exception of maybe Lp400 persicopos, but then when was the last one of those sold.


So yeah prices cant keep going up, that applies to most all cars except maybe 250SWbs GTO's etc.

We now see the ratty cars come out for high prices as owners want to cash in, and the more savy buyers will only buy something good.

One interesting thing BBs have going for them, unlike the CT the styling was not aborted over the run, if anything it got better from 365's (which look truncated) through to the BBI.

While a 512BB may arguably be more charismatic to drive than a BBI, they look the same, and a BBI is a more useable classic, especialy on todays roads, which counts a lot. The raw performance differences between Bbs are also not so big if at all. The 365 has short gearing and a really revy motor, and as a result its considered the best or most pure to drive, it was slso the first and least produced so fetches a premium. Styling wise, unlike the CT the later BBs take the cake.

Great and very good unrestored origional BBIs can still be found and over time markets favor preserved cars, whereas a BB unrestored or not needing restoration may exist but is a mythical beast. Prices for great 512 BBs then will also reflect restoration costs, hence the current very small premium which is probably poor return value for someone who bought a car and paid for the restoration. In fact if there were a restored 512Bb and a newman restored BBi i bet the newman car fetches a higher price, certainly in north america 512Bb and BBi prices are really close, more condition dependant.

For those who lamented the rapid price rise and saw their dream car priced away seemingly forever. It might soon be the time to think about buying that Lp500 DD, and or a great testarossa, or 308 QV or BB/BBi. Still if really good BBs go back to 250k, and dead rollers or shells needing everthing below 100k I wont cry, then I can build up a BB competizione. Nor will many cry if they can buy a really good Tr in the 90-120k range.

 

Well, 300% escalation was not sustainable.

If you follow ANY economic indicators world wide...there's a change in the wind.

Full sail everyone, full sail ahead!!!

$295......$395........$495...eventually the dealers run out of steam......$595???......$695???? Sure they can keep pounding the jungle drums, but unless you want to put it in the Living Room next to the grand piano.....the money gets silly.

That said, I think the street Boxer number $$$, will always be lifted by the very rare LM versions.
They raced........

 

Better to buy now..
When trump gets in.....
The good old Jelly bean eating day of Ronald Reagan will be upon us once again..

 

This guy is me

I once (2013) had a choice between a $117k BBI at Driver Source in Houston and a $120k 1999 Diablo Roadster and chose the Diablo because it just was a better fit for me (150 more HP, and convertible).

Don't regret the decision because the Roadster is amazing, but sure wish I could have had both. Now with about $150k available, can't even find a run down driver grade Boxer.

Enjoy 'em guys!

 

Quite possible.

 

You keep touting that the 512 is better looking than the 365 as if it is fact, but I think many would disagree with this. While I respect your opinion, I wouldn't say by any stretch that this is a generally accepted conclusion. There are many attributes of the 365 that are more aesthetically pleasing over the 512 and perhaps a few the other way. Both are beautiful cars, but the 512 over the 365, I don't see it.

 

I agree with Sean on the 512 being a nicer looking car and its the subtle changes they made like the rear clamshell details that make a big difference. I would say either Pininfarina or Ferrari decided the lines of the cabin needed to be altered and it wasn't an attempt to destroy perfection, it was to improve the lines and it was approved or we wouldn't see that design change. I see it and the skinny wheels don't help the look either and based on how many opt to run 512 rear wheels on a 365 kinda backs up the belief that it looks better with what the 512 came with originally.

 

There are many reasons why designers tweak a cars design for reasons other than aesthetics, which don't always yield a positive result. As I said there are attributes the 365 has over the 512 and vice versa, but it's a personal preference and I love both, though I lean towards the original design overall. While I do agree with you on the deeper wheels, I don't on the rear clamshell. The triple rear lights and triple tip exhaust is also tough to compete with.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I agree http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/boxers-tr-m/521857-365-bb.html

 

512 to my eye.

 

the shorter/more vertical rear of the 365 reminds me of a lancia beta. i like it less than the 512. but i am biased.

 

They're both beautiful but the 512 is more a refined design to my eye.

 

365 from the front (love that 'mouth' without an air dam).

512 from the back (6 lights and pipes looks weird).

Carbs over fi. I am biased but my carbs work well, provide an authentic experience, look nice and sound like they should.

 

I do like the three lights and the early clam with no center louvers. But what I meant about the rear clam was the cabin shape change that effected the clam that just didn't look natural on the 365 and its obvious to me that they saw something as well that just didn't look proportionate or something. Fatter hips for the wider wheels is nice too. Not being a car designer I don't know what to call the effect that look has but it didn't have balance in my mind. I like the lack of a chin spoiler on the 365, makes the nose look clean but would wish for it at high speeds and I drive mine fast.

If you want raw take my koenig cammed 512 out, it eats 512TR's for breakfast

 

Some people dont see this so Im showing the difference, its subtle but its the first thing my eye goes to and the nissan truck design compromise is what it reminds me of. Not and insult! Just what I see.

First pic is 365, rear wheel looks too close to the cabin. 512 looks right. Its the rear cabin line that almost mimics the door shut line ahead of it and it creates a cabin that almost looks leaner, to me that is an improvement.
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

and what will it eat for lunch? and for dinner??

my 512 BB koenig never had a chance to see what is with a 512TR, because they are always behind and the distance between both is growing always

 

I do love those cams! I thought for sure the car would be a stone off the line and come on strong up high but I was wrong!

 

I really like the look of the solid color 512!

 

In BB land as you say its a matter of opinion, many regard the the rear of the 365 as disproportiantly short in regard to the lines of the rest of the car, as did pnin and ferrari. Yes the non airdam front may be more pure astheticaly on the 365, the ineriors on the 512s are similar just more resolved, although early 365 seats are very peasign tot he eye. The two very similar styles have their plusses and minuses. Unlike so many cars that evolved stylisticaly one is not better than the other. Same with 275's, short nose long nose, 2 cam, 4 cam.

Yet in Ct land the lp400 is widely regarded as the best car astheticaly and the shape then increasingly corrupted, to the extent you would have to be a blind pervert to think a 25 anniv can hold a candle to any of the earlier versions, in fact a kit car builder could not have done a worse job.

In 308 land the euro needle nosed cars stylisicaly have it over the 328 by a healthy margin.

Whereas boxers, lets say the areas they evolved made up for the areas they may have lost somehtign to aero etc. My larger point is astheticaly one is not clearly better than the other, one chooses different boxers based more on driving charateristsics, unlike so many other cars. In 512 Land this expalins the small to vanishing delta between a BB and a BBI, whereas in CT land there is a huge delta from a DD to a 25 aniv and that difference is esesentialy styling, just as a perisicopo is double a great DD due to styling..

 

So do I actually even though Im a boxer trim fan! The stance is perfect.

 

like this?
Image Unavailable, Please Login