The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Piper clearly told me that he did not have JG's chassis made by the people who made the Ferrari chassis or in other words the original chassis maker but by a competent chassis maker in Modena he couldn't remember the name of. This is one of the reasons imo why it's different to the originals. If you remember the 1987 Doug Nye Christies auction descriptions of 0900 (referred to as DP2) and the car that JG now has (referred to as DP3), Nye only says that the chassis of 0900 (DP2) was made by the original chassis maker that he names Manicardi e Mesuri who used Reynolds KMO high grade steel supplied from Ferrari stock.

The fact that JG's chassis may be different to the other chassis does not automatically mean it is 0846. Piper obviously had this chassis made to fit an engine with the same engine mounting coordinates as a P3 to fit engines he had at that time, but even that gives a wrong wheelbase by 12mm. It obviously hasn't been made to the same standard as an original. He later fitted a 312 F1 engine (currently in the car that JG says he's stroked to 4 litres) that has differing engine mounting coordinates, said to be the same as P4, hence the bolt on adaptors and modified water hose that that are needed to attach this engine.

Regarding these different diameter chassis tubes you speak of this proves absolutely nothing. And where is the evidence of these different size chassis tubes? Have you seen them? Are there pictures of them? Please post the pictures of them if there are actually pictures of them. John Hajduk, who rebuilt JG's car when he got it back to the US, told me that there were a few tubes he removed that weren't welded in the Ferrari way.

How do you know that the bulkhead on Piper's 0900 is the same as a P4? Is there a picture of this? If so please post the picture(s) of it.

There is no proof of other damage consistent with repairs and modifications that were known to have been performed on 0846 in period. Nothing is known. It's all conjecture that you again make the mistake of stating as fact.

In addition to the above what is this misplaced tube you speak of on the left hand side? Have you not read my earlier post today showing a picture of the corresponding RHS tube that also joins the other tubes in the middle/above whereas genuine Ferrari chassis 0854 has the tube offset to the side of the other ones?

Thank you.

 

Round and round we go.... again. Tiresome at best.

Perry

 

Doesn't character count?? Certainly in other mediums the reputation and perception of the person presenting their version of the facts is taken into account. The fact that many of us have determined that one contributor's version of history is motivated by something more than a search for the truth deserves to be recognized along the way.

>8^)
ER

 

What strikes me as unusual is that David Piper,.."can't remember who built the chassis". Really? The chassis IS the car. If you are building a car, any car,....you ought to vet the chassis maker fairly well, have a decent dialog/discussion etc,.with them. You would think you would remember them. It's not like they supplied a few fasteners for the car,...those people are sometimes forgotten,...not the chassis maker.

It's not like you would say,..."build me a chassis, and send me a bill,...where and to whom do I send payment to?,....who are you again?"

I would think one would "remember" who built your car/chassis, or even a name of a contact there.

Or it's possible David Piper wasn't very involved with the actual building of "his" cars/chassis, and had someone else do his work for him, and possibly he doesn't even know or much less care who built his cars,...and that's fine.

...just my .02 Lira on the pasta

 

In a court (of public opinion) one needs a jury.

miurasv, only knows "what he can find" on the backs of other well known experts.....and then loads up another salvo....

So, I would not lend too much credence to his "new research" in the issue. If he solves the case, I would be the first to congratulate him........even a blind hog finds an acorn once in awhile.

Certainly we can prevail on the current owners of these vehicles, as well as the original designers and operating crews, to help us solve the riddles. But that's certainly not the same as pure objective research.

Looking forward to this "Timeline of Facts" regarding the subject car.
I think it will actually require a vector diagram......

 

You are either an in law, or an outlaw.


Piper was utilizing Ferrari authorized supply chains, but the products did NOT come on a yellow horsie box. He would not know the origin, nor care, IMO.

When Mr. G ordered new uprights, they were invoiced thru FNA, produced by Ferrari supply chain, (most castings are actually done on site, as you learn from Doug Nye's book....)....and they fit.

I am trying to make a distinction here, I hope some can see it.

 

And piling on with Piper's questionable actions, do we really want to trust the word of a guy who was granted permission for one but somehow ended up with three?

>8^)
ER

 

The bulkhead tubes on continuation Piper 0900a are exactly the same as Piper DP0003 which is Mr Glickenhaus's chassis. Look hard at the right hand side of the area of the tubes in the bulkhead we discussed over the last few days on JG's chassis which I have drawn around in yellow. Compare pic below for rear mount.
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Very well put Rob.

Jeff

 

Do you have consent from Mr Forghieri yet to substantiate your claim that he now feels that their is no metal from 0846 that he recognises on Jim's chassis?

You made claims in post 7901 but have never offered the man's own words to the forum, only your interpretation of them.

 

It takes more than a bare chassis to make a car, where do you think everything else came from? Piper didn't fabricate the hundreds of Ferrari specific parts need to produce those cars. There is no evidence Ferrari had an issue with Piper building more than one from what I can see, it's just talk that they actually did, nothing more. Piper was a free advert for the factory with his race campaigns long after Ferrari had moved on from the P cars.

I have yet to see anything where the factory has ever derided Piper, only the people in this thread in fact, and purely because it does not suit their cause regarding Jims car.

 

From what I can see, whenever someone like you questions Steve, once he has gathered the facts and received the approval of the third party then he posts the said info every time, so cool your heels, no doubt it is in hand.

 

I'm quite sure that he can speak for himself.

No lap dogs needed here.

 

We in the acceptant group have been accused of using conjecture as fact. One thing that most including the non-acceptant group have traditionally agreed is that most of the parts that are fitted to #0846 are official Ferrari parts or OEM replacements and either way they are not specifically from #0846 but are accurate to the model so thats a non issue. And there are at least one point of conjecture.

Not sure how he was carrying out a race campaign unless you are talking about him competing in classic races in the UK?

+1 Ginge82 is as independently minded as any of us.......

 

Obviously?

How did Piper build a P3? This is a complete departure from the deal he had with Enzo and what he was building with the other two frames.

You talk to Piper. I'd have to say this story holds no water and neither does his if he has no memory of it, if he had a P3 frame built on special from a chassis maker in Modena then he should be able to give us several details right now on how he pulled this feat off?

What sits in front of us is of P3 origin.

If you still have no answer for how, who (some chassis manufacturer in Modena), when, where (Modena) and Piper can't tell you some of the details in the very near future, then I don't know how you can put forth your position as being legitimate?

You want us to believe that he orchestrated the build of a different chassis design, at another manufacturer than was building the P4's and he has zero recollection of how, who etc?

I can understand that maybe he has forgotten the Modena manufacturers name... What I can't understand is how he pulled this off but can't remember how etc?

I'm sure he can go on for days about the details of how the 2 P4 frames were built.

 

Do you feel 0858 original P4 parts lack continuity to 0858 Can Am parts?

Do you feel 0858 Piper P4 have clear continuity to 0858 original P4 parts ?

Would you say that the parts in Jim's car lack continuity to being genuine P 3 - P4 in period parts with exception of the uprights, tires, etc.?

Not asking if they have continuity to 0846 in period, but rather to the (in period program of) P3 -P4 genuine racing parts as used and swapped throughout those racing cars.

 

Could say the same about you and Jim!

and I don't like seeing people being bullied and ganged up on just because they don't tow the line, something you and others do to Steve.

I am still very much sitting on the fence, I have said all along I have no dog in this fight, I am only interested in facts.

 

Piper has been racing these cars since day one all around the world, he has not come late to the party now they are in fashion again in the classic scene.

The point I was making was that Piper could not have build up the 3 extra P cars without the help of the factory, so these claims he was doing anything underhand by constructing more than one is clearly not true.

 

He only had the one "continuation VIN, of 0900"??

 

Steve has made very bold claims that in private correspondence with him, Mr Forghieri has now decided that Jim's car is a 'replica' and that he doesn't recognise any sections of the car. That is quite some development.

Given the above I don't think that I'm alone in thinking that I would rather hear from the organ grinder...

 

You never asked Jim to post the full exchange of messages he had with MF did you? I will post MF's exact correspondence in due course. As I have answered you now please allow me the same courtesy when I ask you why you didn't question Jim when he twisted MF's words and used them to form a sentence he had not said below.

"the modification of the chassis with vestigial mounts etc." "of course" could have been done by Ferrari."

Now please answer why you didn't question Jim about the above blatant lie.

 

You completely miss the entire concept of continuity. Is there a traceable path over time of how the assorted components are where they are now? With 0846 the answer is an absolute no. As DP003 it is at best a continuation car that uses some assortment of period "parts bin" parts.