Valve Guide

Hi Roth,

Ferrari did put out a service bulletin in December 1997 indicating that starting with Assembly nbr: 27689, engines were equipped with steel valve guides instead of Bronze. Your local dealer might have a copy of the actual service bulletin if you check with them.

 

Oh boy, here we go again

The factory made a change from bronze to sintered steel at a certain assembly number per this document.

5,4,3,2,1......until we hear that bronze guides were found after that published number..

Perhaps? Sure, mitakes happen but I feel is very exaggerated /much needed flame suit on/

Before getting into Ferrari's, I'd step into my car, turn the key, drive and enjoy. Here, too much information somewhat kills that.

Take proper care of your car, fix what's broken,enjoy
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Any car can have the valve guide issue- 95 to 99. Better to buy a car that had them updated if that worries you- just do a ppi and drive the damn thing Any of these cars can have expensive issues beyond the valve guides...same goes for any Ferrari (360/430), lambo, etc

 

My timing belts are 12 years old, but I've only driven 1200 miles. Should I change them?

 

Steyr-Puchs have timing belts?

 

Best advice yet. There was an article in Forza not to long ago describing the 355 ownership experience. An interesting read... To think that engine/head issues are overblown would be a gross miscalculation. Rather than poll the Internet, ask a few pros, shop owners and Dealers for their spin on the issue.

 

Don't need no stinkin' chains. Don't want no stinkin' belts!
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Having worked at GM in the mid 90's and continuing to do business with them for many years after, I struggle to believe an auto manufacture would release a tech bulletin that is false. Hmm, what would their motivation be along with legal liability?

While Ferrari is not GM, the mid 90's where a major strive to improve manufacturing quality. My main business designed and built many machines to simply "errorproof" the processes.

Human error? Could bronze guides gotten mixed in with the new sintered steel guides? Sure, anything is possible but not too probable at least on any large percentage. Plus, I'm thinking the workers would need to be color blind to not catch it - but, that's just me.

I personally put more stock in an official bulletin over rumors from the "internet".

Speaking of the "internet", well I know on this forum and others, that consists of many owners and long-time owners. While some have had some bad problems, a large percentage of the folks get in their cars, turn the key and enjoy. I have 3 355's, 2 of them fit that bill. One is a project car and it certainly has some issue but not knowing the full history of the car, I don't know how many of them were the fault of the factory or the prior folks working on the car.

I've spoken to many pros and factory trained techs and they don't subscribe the the "doom and gloom" that many do.

Given one of my 355's was bought near the virgin state, I know from the factory it's a fantastic car. Do these have issue? Sure, and when they come up, I will correct them.

But, if you listen to some, they would have you replacing fenders and doors every service. It's a lot of non-sense and over servicing that's really not needed.

 

Official service bulletins have some serious consequences if proven false.

My only experience with these type of events was with McDonnell Douglas and Massey Ferguson when I worked there. In each case, airplanes or tractors, when failing parts were forced to be replaced and the event was documented with a bulletin, the offending parts were pulled & scrapped.

I see little reason that Ferrari would issue that bulletin and then continue to use the old valve guides,.

Did someone drop a 1996 engine in a 1999 car that had an engine failure and then squawk about the valve guides being bronze? Maybe looking for a free valve job and igniting an internet **** storm? Now that I believe.

 

Exactly. They did not bring the new guides over the to line and dump them in the box with the old

 

I replace AND align my fenders and doors at every major service every 3 years.

 

I do not think that it was a matter of strength (weak vs strong), but conditions that led to accelerated wear, likely related to temperatures that were not initially expected/predicted by the engineering staff. The bronze valve guides, under less stressful conditions, could have probably served admirably otherwise.

 

There were good and bad batches of valve guides, some hard and some soft. Nothing more complicated than that. Same problem was seen by the 456, 456M, and 550, with some afflicted and some not. Since the numbers of those V12s were very low compared to the V8s, Ferrari did not bother with a fix until the 575M came out (sintered steel guides again). On the F355, with its much larger production numbers, the change was made to sintered steel guides at the assembly number noted in the bulletin. The sintered steel guides were in all likelihood cheaper for Ferrari than manganese bronze, so worth the effort on two fronts for the V8s. Ferrari put out a bulletin for the 456M and 550 stating sintered steel guides were to be used on any valve jobs and with instructions and tool numbers for the job.

 

I disagree completely. Too many case of Ferraris with the bronze guides reaching 60-100,000 miles with no problems and others failing at 20,000 miles or even less. That is not caused by environment. There were good and bad sets of guides and it was luck of the draw which type or which mix of types a particular Ferrari received.

 

Although any car can have the issues I would think any car which has a serial number that is within the serial numbers listed would have a much higher chance unless they have been done would make the most sense to me.

My experience in Ferrari ownership is there are two kinds of owners. Some of them fix things properly and to as high if not higher standards than original. Others fix only what will keep the car driving by patching or selling. Usally a conversation with the owner will reveal a lot or paper work, paperwork, paper work!!

 

I'd like to agree with you here. However, there are no absolutes in the Ferrari world and what they say they're going to do and what they actually do are often very different. Valve guide and general lack of quality/durability are not new to Ferrari. It's fun to post a TSB citing a quality issue/production change, yet both the 456 and 550, models that followed the F355 too had valve guide issues. Some granted, but not all...Considering the cost of a top end overhaul on a F355, the value of a professional PPI eliminates all doubts with regards to the engine condition. That was my point, all along. And even if there are not guide issues, that surely doesn't means that the car will be trouble-free.

I suspect that you are correct. Many folks simply don't realize just how high running costs can be on these cars. Short of perhaps a vintage 12-cylinder car, the F355 is (likely) the most expensive Ferrari to maintain. Granted they are great cars when fully sorted and running correctly. But, to get them to that point and keep them there is often more costly that even the most well-heeled might suspect. That's reality, based on three decades of service experience....and not some "doom and gloom" nonsense. The interviews in Forza Magazine with 355 owners expressed the same views with regards to the ownership experience.

 

Instead of Forza finding the 3 folks (out of thousands) with bad experiences (and who knows the circumstances), they would have served the brand better to find the hundreds here that have great running cars which don't require over servicing given the bones of the 355 are great aside from a couple known and easily correctable issues.

I seem to recall a thread here about that article when it came out. EDIT: Here it is: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/348-355-sponsored-bradan/445448-forza-f355-article.html

These are my opinions based on being an owner with no agenda other than to report that my cars run great and have cost me less to maintain than other cars owned. Your mileage may vary

 

My experience goes back 30+ years. I know what it says on the TSB but what happens in reality appears that whatever luigi had in his hand at that moment is what ends up in the car. I doubt that culture has changed completely but they have gotten better over time. I'm pretty sure that if a box of old bronze guides were found in 1997 they would have ended up in a '97 355.

Mark talked about operating conditions and I think it is all about that. Not only design conditions but poor operating conditions kill the 355. Remember the blast furnace high hp per liter that is the 355. Some mention 550's having this issue. The design conditions are totally different. I keep hearing about 550's but owned 2 of them and still own one. I have been involved in the 550 world for many years now and only personally know of 1 550 that has ever had guide issues and it may have had more to do with poor operating conditions and for sure had questionable operating conditions rather than the guides themselves.


Sorting is happening at the consumer level. It is not easy for pros to sort the 355 because they don't live with them. "Check writers" bring the cars to pros sporadically or on some time schedule. The pros just fix what they can in the time allotted and the cars are gone. DIY guys are fixing things in real time and consistently. At Stoogeapoluzzas which probably have 20 or so of these cars in attendance we have gone from major debugging and repair to our last event last week that was 99% an eating event! These cars are getting better because we are figuring them out and often fixing Ferrari's mistakes. Reliability has shot through the roof. Stooges are rapidly running out of things to fix. But the good thing is that now we seem to be hitting the race track more.

 

Aside from high specific output I also tend to think a lot of it has to do with the type of people who own/owned the car.

We've all seen the guy that loves to test the rev limiter on an ice cold engine. Fire it up, oil temp is 50 degrees, how about a series of 8700rpm rev's to impress your friends.

I cringe every time.

I like to think that those of us with mechanical empathy, putting the time into carefully warming the car up before stretching it's legs is doing it a great favor.

As for the OP's question of putting an end to this subject here and now? Never gonna happen. F355 valve guide threads will exist weekly from now until the end of time

 

Anyone ever seen a bronze guide in person? Here you go. From the depths of my 2001 456M GT. One of 48 little gems now since replaced by manganese.

 

Bet your new guides are manganese bronze, not pure manganese.