The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I actually do not think this is about $$$, Jim gets a hefty inheritance and really has no need for more money. I think this is only about status, or respect actually.

 

Yale and Sean,

I agree about the status/respect/prestige aspect but, in my opinion, its actually about usage rights. If its a '60s Ferrari, it is street legal in NY state. If its a '70s Piper, it can't be registered in its present configuration. Also, if its 0846ish it may be invited to/used in more events, hence more fun for Jim. However, Jim now has other cars that meet those criteria

As I recall, Jim said 'I think my chassis has parts of 0846'. For a long time my understanding of the argument was: 'Yes the chassis contains pieces of 0846' vs. 'No, Piper had it built from scratch'. Now I'm not clear as to whether the 'No' camp is saying that 'none or Jim's chassis is original Ferrari,' 'not enough of Jim's chassis is original Ferrari' or 'there's insufficient evidence to determine if any of Jim's chassis is original Ferrari.'

At the moment, the pot has been stirred quite nicely; I look forward to seeing how things settle out.

On a separate note: My main comment on the car based on seeing it years ago is: The paint is done way too nicely. I doubt the factory would have buffed everything to a mirror finish.

Regards to all,

Art S.

 

Lazarus taxon


via Tapatalk

 

And the funniest part of Steve's obsessive pursuit to discredit Jim is that the answers he really wants can only be provided by David Piper, questions like
- where is the proof in documentation ( as demanded by Steve from Jim) from Piper that Enzo or Ferrari ever actually approved letting Piper construct a P4 replica?
- Where is the proof in writing that Ferrari approved the use of sn 0900 by Piper for the replica?
- where is the proof, in writing of course as Steve demands, that Ferrari authorized THREE replicas as Piper had built, rather than the ONE that is colloquially understood to have been authorized by Ferrari?
- How does Piper get a total pass from Steve when he replies "I don't recall" to the questions of how one of his three new repro frames wasn't new?
- How does Piper get a similar "I don't recall" pass to Marcel Massini's positive identification of a P4 frame stamped 0846 in Switzerland in shipping transit to a David Piper company in the UK?

You'd think those would be the hot leads to doggedly pursue in as genuine quest for truth, but Steve completely ignores those and refuses to push Piper on these. Given that posture, the only legit conclusion is that Steve doesn't actually care about 9846, he cares far more about a) protecting Piper, and b) attacking Jim.

 

Total b........ And your quest is not to find the truth, but only to attack me and my pursuit of it.

 

GordonC has some really good points that I would like answered, especially the positive chassis identification by a renown expert on it's way to Mr Piper. Definitely would help the "cause".

But again why is my question going unanswered? Is it because I asked it so devoid of emotion .

It is an important question. If the difference between a P3 and P4 chassis are so minor that it really is only the engine location, then is the often said comment that you cannot make a P3 chassis in a P4 chassis jig actually invalid?

Again why make a P3 chassis in the first place when making a P4 replica?, but that is another question.

Can somebody please list the differences between a P3 and P4 chassis. Thanks
Pete

 

I believe there may be misinformation that leads most people to think that a 1966 P3 chassis had the same kind of engine mountings as a 1967 412P.

This may not be the case with the P3 having had the engine mounted in a totally different way with 4 horizontal feet on the P3 216B block connecting to the chassis, the same way as a P2 and the earlier 4 cam Massimino designed 290S, 315S and 335S engines.

 

What about the front of the chassis'. What are the differences please between a P3 and P4?
Pete

 

I think they differ in detail such as the brakes, suspension, steering rack, suspended pedal box and position of the oil cooler. I'm sure the experts will know.

 

Not that I expected any better from you... but I don't have a quest. Jeff Kennedy has posted that the 'chain of custody' is critical here to establish what is what - but Jim is at the end of the chain, there are no missing pieces there - he bought the frame from Piper, established and agreed fact. The mystery, confusion, questions, are all about how that chassis came to be during Piper's ownership. Piper has the answers. If you don't believe that those questions are more critical to identifying the truth of this car's origins....

As I said, your outright refusal to pursue Mr. Piper for the answers that only he has are a clear indication that you have no interest in actually validating what is 0846; only in discrediting Jim. You refuse to pursue those questions because they might perhaps be uncomfortable for Mr. Piper, but you show no similar reluctance to go after Jim.

You want the truth? You can't handle the truth. Yeah, it's a cheesy movie quote, but the blatantly obvious fact to non-partisan observers, by your refusal and avoidance above, is that you aren't interested in the truth. You're obsessing over the nuances of Ing. Forghieri's statements in Italian and English as the exact meaning of the words he used discussing Jim's car, yet you have NO words from Ferrari providing a provenance for ANY of the three Piper frames - not 0900, 0900a, or 0903 or 0846. You certainly don't accept Jim's claims, demanding endless documentation, yet you accept Piper's claims without a shred of paper or proof. What a pathetic joke.

 

More b....... I have called DP on a number of occasions, asked him the questions but I cannot make him answer. I reported what he and his wife said. Jim is the one making all the claims which he cannot substantiate or answer valid questions regarding those claims. Rather than answer, because he cannot, he conveniently decided to leave FChat and personally attack me by calling me a troll.

Why on earth would I request provenance from Ferrari for the Piper frames? Haven't you heard? They're replicas.

 

So if you agree that those questions that can only be answered by Piper and won't be answered by Piper are key and critical, what's the point of your witch-hunt of Jim?

We could end this thread right now by listing the unanswered questions about the provenance of the 0846 frame while in Piper's possession, and agree that until Piper resolves them those questions are open.

What's the purpose of your obsessive pursuit of Jim, when we all agree that he doesn't have the answers? It can't be for the truth, because he doesn't have it. Piper does.

The claim is that 0900 was built with the approval of Enzo, with the official assignment of sn 0900 by Ferrari. That claim is totally unsubstantiated. In terms of the very rare category of factory authorized replicas, the claim is generally understood to have been approval for a single replica, yet Piper had 3 built. Bizarrely, one of those three is not like the others.

The provenance of all three replicas, whether one or three were actually approved by Ferrari, is intricately linked to the chain of custody of the Piper frame that differed from its two siblings. The paper trail of approvals, permissions, etc. should be just as sacrosanct to a genuine pursuit for truth as your demands for documentation in all other aspects.

 

Piper didn't sell Jim a car he claimed to be the long lost famous racing car. He sold him a replica that he helped Jim register for road use in the US. It's Jim who is making all the claims. He who alleges must prove and he can't.

 

Only because Piper won't. My proposal still stands - the outstanding questions begin and end with Piper.

 

Piper is not making the claims re Jim's chassis. He doesn't have to prove anything. Ask Piper yourself whatever you want.

 

We are not talking about Piper's 0900 here. How do you know Jim's chassis is different from the other 2? Please prove that fact. I proved a few days ago, after Solofast stated that the bulkhead was unique on Jim's chassis, that it's exactly the same as the ex Max Wakefield 0900a. Read the thread.

 

Further to the Piper chain of custody:

From 11 years ago, http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142613962-post2993.html
09-01-2005, 05:43 AM

"Here are my 2 cents in this never ending pissing contest:
In 1977 I visited Franco Sbarro's warehouse in Grandson, Switzerland. There was a P3 or P4 car and David Piper showed me a customs carnet (customs booklet) which stated the chassis number 0846 and the name of the owner at the time was a company called "Cervan Corporation". I assume that this company was owned at the time by David Piper. No, I could not make any photos, neither of the car nor of the customs carnet.
Marcel Massini"

This predates any involvement that J.G. had with the car and indicates that already in 1977 the 0846 chassis number was being used by (someone).
Presumably if someone had taken the time to use the number on a carnet, there would also have been a car with that number. People don't just make up paperwork for fun.


M

 

Piper for some reason..and I believe a legal one, is keeping his mouth shut. Just as many experts are as well. This car will forever have a story behined it, unless sombody some how unearths the real chassis.

 

That sounds logical,......

The chassis was pulled/lifted/taken/borrowed/given/sold, with a "nod" or with out direct permission to,....Mead, "Piper", et. al., then rebuilt by noted, "I can't remember" chassis maker.

Today = huge possible liability for "someone", that "liberated" an original chassis from the Ferrari scrap heap to build a "replica".

The issue today is the chassis, likely in part, is at least an original. And the chassis IS the car.

 

Why?

IMO there are four types of 0003/0846 people...

A. Those that don't care about 0003/0846.
B. Those that will do anything to prove it is not 0846.
C. Those that will do anything to prove it is 0846.
D. Those that are interested in finding out what it actually is, and what its history is.

Which group do you feel Miura fits in? A, B, C or D? Which one are you?

He has the direct line with Piper. If you need to ask why one of us doesn't call Piper you have not read the thread, Piper has had his lips sealed, I wonder why? He can't come up with a simple explanation of how a frame, that is different than the other two he built, came to be? To me Piper and his silence make, is this or is this not 0846, a little less grey. If he can't explain these simple facts, he must be hiding something, or he simply doesn't know and these three frames were built in the same shop etc.

Would love to know who was setting up jigs in Modena when the other frames were built elsewhere with the jigs set up? , Hmmmm..... Sounds like he wasn't worried about money, and spent freely having the manufacturing of these set up twice. And why did he build this third P4 differently than the P4 plans he used on the other two frames, Hmmm...... Where did he have the other two frames built? Were all 3 different from each other? Did he have some fun and veer off from the plans on one or two to spice it up? Are any two of these Piper Chassis the same? Many questions that would help narrow down what sits in front of us? What is the time frame of when these were built at the supposedly two different chassis makers?

What are you trying to prove Miura? Or investigate as you say?

What is this truth you are questing after?

If you were pursuing the truth you would have questioned Piper a long time ago with the zeal that you are questioning Foghieri. Piper literally holds more answers to is this 0003? then even Foghieri, If he is the expert everyone claims him to be, and had this frame specifically designed this way. For a reason. One that he would surely remember, even if the chassis maker name slips his memory.

If Jim is the one that has something to prove then why are you pursuing Foghieri but not Piper? who is literally the worlds greatest expert of what happened to the car when he had it. If the frame was built differently, Piper is literally more of an expert on identifying HIS frame and describing why it is indeed 0003.

An enquiring mind would want to know. No?

 

ID and carnet swapping was rife back then in order to avoid the lengthy customs issues of shipping race cars all around the world just for a couple of weeks.

I imagine that's what was happening, all the race teams were upto it, and this may reflect on David Pipers selective memory even all these years later.

If he thought he had the real 0846 chassis back then, why sell it years later as a far less valuable replica? Ferrari hold no claim to it, they scrapped it, someone used to buy that scrap from them and was then free to use said scrap for whatever they liked.

 

Just nobody has to prove, investigate or explain anything except the person who had bought, payed and taxed David Piper’s 0003 replica and now publicly claims to have an original Ferrari works car with number 0846, although Ferrari confirms in writing that this Ferrari car and Ferrari number 0846 does not exist. Is this so hard to understand? Hence, just David Piper’s 0003 - made from a very nice mix of Ferrari parts - exists today and this car is certainly a non Ferrari. The rest is simply speculation and dreaming. However, any repetition of romantic theories and wild claims in varying form remain highly entertaining even after fifteen years!

 

Only those who are motivated by actually finding out the truth do. If you are here to win an argument no need to uncover the actual truth.

This is not a court case, no one needs to win. If Miura is really just searching for the truth then he sure is skipping past the place where the truth lies.

Sorry LGS this is not a court case, if you are actually doing an "investigation" and want answers Piper is every bit as valuable as is Foghieri.

He is just a guy...

Well if that's true, then he would ask questions where the truth actually lies, Piper.

JG isn't the one here screaming this and that. He's moved on. If Miura wants to keep screaming about this and that and his goal is to uncover the "truth" versus prove this to not be 0846 then he would find this truth by asking his friend Piper relevant questions instead of Badgering Foghier and controlling the narrative to discount what Foghieri says. I mean, the guy interviews Foghieri behind closed doors, does not have command of the Italian Language, and then comes back with his interpretation with Zero proof he even talked with Foghieri?

Steve doesn't have to talk to Piper if he is in this to be biased and prove it is not 0846. But if he is really here for the truth, he would. I think we all know he is not here for the truth.

If Piper were pursued with 1/4 the zeal that he badgers Foghieri this conversation would not last another 15 years.

I have no problem with him not talking to Piper, he doesn't have to do anything that he doesn't want to do, but at least then we will know what most of us already know, that his ruse of being here to uncover the truth is B.S. He is here for one reason, to dis credit 0846 and no truth is ever going to come out from that bias.

 

Vincent, I do not have a line to Piper as you keep on suggesting. I have called him to find out what I can. It's not easy getting answers from these people I assure you. When I spoke to David last, after answering questions I had, the details of which I have disclosed here, he told me he didn't want to speak about it any more so I haven't skipped Piper at all.