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Discussion in 'Tracking & Driver Education' started by Texas Forever, May 29, 2016.

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  1. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    #1 Texas Forever, May 29, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi, I recently decided to get back into racing, but going the "po boy" route. That is, I purchased an interest in the formally known as Hello Dead Kitty racing team, and we plan on doing WRL, Chump and Lemons. (See pic and Youtube for more about the car.)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcxhAjGNifQ

    I realize racing will always be dangerous: but with a full cage, Hans, 6 point harness, and fire suppression systems, it can be relatively safe.

    But this story about a fire at COTA during a WRL race earlier this year scared the bejabbers out of me:

    TRAPPED IN A BURNING RACE CAR, Part I

    "On COTA's massive back straightaway, ... I smelled fuel and felt a cold spray over my right hand and leg. There was a sudden flash and my whole world turned a bright, terrifying orange. Everything was on fire.

    Flames poured through every crack in the firewall. My right hand was on fire. Splashed with fuel, my right leg was burning as well. Even the inside of the cockpit was ablaze as fuel vapor ignited and literally set the air on fire. I could see nothing. I could not steer the car off the track because I couldn't see the track.
    ***
    In a desperate effort to see, I foolishly raised the visor on my helmet as the car slowed down. *** I found the fire extinguisher switch but by this time it was useless. The intensity of the heat was indescribable. ***

    Now, as my leg, face and arm continued to burn, I had one dominant thought in my head… “I've got five more seconds. Maybe ten. If anything goes wrong with my egress, I'm going to die.”
    ***
    I blindly groped for the safety latch on my harness. I found it and my belts came loose instantly and cleanly. During this brief moment I distinctly recall watching my right thigh catch fire.
    *** The back of my right glove was on fire as well. I wear Impact Racing Products exclusively. My safety gear was doing its job and held up amazingly well.
    ***
    Still burning, I clambered out of the car and the upper half of my body fell free, while my feet were pinned under the steering wheel.*** After a few seconds of wriggling I was completely clear of the race car, which by this time was consumed in flames six feet high.
    ***
    The EMT's arrived in record time. They removed my helmet, then pulled my gloves off. Despite their best efforts, I watched in horror as the skin on the back of my right thumb dripped off my hand."

    Needless to say, I'm very concerned about fire. I'm insisting we put an auto fire system in Kitty, and I want to buy the best possible suit, which leads to my question:

    1. I have a 15-year old G Force suit rated SFI 3-2A/5 that was only been worn maybe a dozen times. (It's hot!) From what I have read, these suits do not degrade over time so this suit should still be legal.

    2. From my reading, a SFI 5 suit gives you 10 seconds before 2nd degree burns.

    3. But a SFI 20 suit gives you 40 seconds! But these suits are always labeled as being suitable for drag racing.

    So what is the problem with using a SFI 20 suit for road racing? If I'm on fire, 30 seconds is a HUGE difference.

    Are the SFI 20 suits considered to be too bulky and hot to use for road racing. (Remember, I'll be doing 2 hours stints.)

    What are your thoughts? I'm not worried about looking pretty. It is impossible to improve on perfection. But I'm willing to spend whatever it takes to buy as much protection as possible.

    Thx
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  2. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    #2 Texas Forever, Jun 2, 2016
    Crickets?

    Nobody has any thoughts on SFA 5 v SFA 20?
     
  3. Robb

    Robb Moderator
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    #3 Robb, Jun 2, 2016
    Good post to make us all think. I bought an OMP one-s suit for around $800 a few months ago. It was lighter weight. I'll have to look into its rating and time you gain to get out of a burning car.

    Our challenge car has a fire safety extinguisher for the cab and engine compartment.

    Robb
     
  4. CornersWell

    CornersWell F1 Rookie

    Nov 24, 2004
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    #4 CornersWell, Jun 2, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2016
    Triple layer, or I don't get in the car. With nomex underwear. So, four layers. Hot? You bet. But, if and when I need a few more seconds, I've got them. I've been in a car on fire. Believe me, you don't want to need the protection but not have it.

    You can always run a cooling system.

    IMO, safety is not a place to scrimp. If you want a higher rating, I don't think that's a bad idea.

    CW
     
  5. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    #5 BigTex, Jun 2, 2016
    ProAm here sells Simpson suits.

    Maybe a discussion with them about the difference between the two ratings, or call Simpson in New Bransfels, they are always helpful, when I drop in to see them there?

    My experience is more electrical arc flash protection, not flame exposure.
    Different kind of fire, I suppose.
     
  6. FarmerDave

    FarmerDave F1 World Champ
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    #6 FarmerDave, Jun 2, 2016
    Howdy Dale,

    I have no data on what an SFI 20 suit feels like.

    Personally, I prefer 3-2A/5 2-piece suits (jacket and pants) for endurance racing.

    Because if you are actually endurance racing, crapcans style, you are as likely to be working on the car as you are driving. Unless you're the "arrive and drive" guy who has no wrenching ability. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But it's a hell of a lot easier to get ready for a stint preceeded immediately by wrenching, if you are already wearing the lower half of your gear.

    Notice I have said nothing about the safety aspect. There are folks who would say a 2 piece suit is less safe. Well, say, staying home on my couch would be the safest strategy of all, short term.
     
  7. FarmerDave

    FarmerDave F1 World Champ
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    #7 FarmerDave, Jun 3, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Are you going to race Lemons Houston in the fall?

    I'll be there in this steed. If it survives the rest of the Lemons season.

    I like your car. I have a similar E36 in my driveway. I haven't turned it into a track car. Yet.

    I was prepping a 2005 Mini Cooper for the Big Bend Open Road Race out here in West Texas. It was nearly good to go, but I hit a deer with it and haven't had time to jack with it. Missed BBORR. That sucked. But, there's always next year.
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  8. Gary Milgrom

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    #8 Gary Milgrom, Jun 3, 2016
    Disclaimer - I work for HANS Performance Products, a unit of Simpson Performance. Thank you for the opportunity of posting in this forum. For more information on fire suits please call Simpson Customer Service at 800-654-7223. Thank you.

    Gary Milgrom
    gmilgrom (at) teamsimpson (dot) com
     
  9. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    #9 Texas Forever, Jun 3, 2016
    I'll post more later in your endurance racing thread, but I'm part of a 3 (maybe 4) car team (Honda, Focus, BMW). We were going to do COTA in August, but my team members are wimps and decided it would be too hot.

    Current plan is to do Chumps, Lemons and WRL in the Fall.




     
  10. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    #10 Texas Forever, Jun 3, 2016
    Thanks


     
  11. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    #11 Texas Forever, Jun 3, 2016
    I used to take a cavalier attitude toward driver's suits. That's why I haven't worn my triple layer SFA 5 that much in 15 years. But, after reading this guy's story, I'm singing a different tune. Seeing fire come through the firewall is the stuff of nightmares.

    Granted, a good suit is only part of the answer. I'm insisting we replace all fuel lines and use the best possible fittings. We also need to pay attention to how lines are routed and protect them.

    A lot of endurance racers use full cells to increase capacity. But I'm thinking those BMW engineers knew what they were doing when they designed the gas tank. Plus, easing up on the go pedal is a great way to increase fuel mileage.

    I want an auto fire system instead of a switch, the more the merrier.

    I'm also taking note of what the guy said about his dark helmet visor. Up till now, I didn't use visors, but I'm going to use a clear one now (along with my dark sunglasses).

    Any other ideas will be appreciated.
     
  12. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    #12 BigTex, Jun 3, 2016
    Welcome, Gary!!!

    My son and I will be by, to look at some CF helmets, soon....

    Good point about the seperates, with a one piece, you are forever zipping down to peel it off, and waddling around with your sleeves on the ground behind you.....
     
  13. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    #13 BigTex, Jun 3, 2016
    Glasses under the helmet are a hassle.

    I use tape (white adhesive sheet actually) across the top of the visor (clear or tinted) and that cuts down on glare, also gives you a handy spot for sponsor exposure!!!
     
  14. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

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    #14 spirot, Jun 3, 2016
    I don't race cars anymore - but do a fair bit of Karting... and I wear a full CIK suit when on track with others. it only takes one spill to see why you need the protective ware.

    as for Nomex suits - I've always used Stand 21 products. My nomex suit is circa 1995... but was full FIA rated etc... triple layer etc. when doing F- Renault racing back in the 90's - I would wear full underware with the feet just to be sure...

    I had one fairly serious racing incident where I ended up about 3/4 upside down and the fuel breather was dripping gas down my back... and it pooled up under my crotch... no fire - but lets just say Balls of Fire took on a different meaning. 101 octane fuel does not feel great ... especially on sensitive skin areas. so I literally went through $800 bucks of gear in one race. - Tip, if you get fuel on your suit... just get a new one... no mater how many times you wash it, when you start to sweat... it wicks it back out...

    the Track marshals at misano were not exactly "on their game that day"
     
  15. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #15 fatbillybob, Jun 4, 2016
    Dale, glad you are back in the saddle. Driver comfort will also keep you safe. Heat is killer. Racecars with zero insulation for weight savings are hotter inside than the ambient air. 80 outside can be 120 inside. The sfi rating is the same regardless of number of suit layers. Adding nomex underwear adds more safetime. A 3.2/5 suit with 3 layers is just old tech when the most modern suit is 1 layer (sparco rs4). Carbon-x underwear wicks moisture better than nomex to reduce steam burns. Car prep as you illuded to is everything. Preventing a fire is just as important as preventing burns. Practice emergency exit. During warmup laps know where you can safely park the car so you can exit without getting hit by another car. Too many converted streetcars have poorly maintained fuel systems. Modern oem tanks can be safer than fuel cells if not well engineered. Orphan wire is a big problem as a source for sparks. External oil cooler and cooler lines routing are often an issue even in pro build cars. Remember boris siad in the LBGP on fire in the LG motorsports corvette from an oil line? Gutting often leaves holes in firewalls. Tape and putty is not a solution. Very few will tack weld metal patches but should. On board fire systems are a must. Watch out for too many nozzles with too little bottle volume. 2 fire systems is not a bad idea especially if you need ballast to make weight.
     

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