The only people who ask for manual gearboxes are...

THAT is a good idea.



American Soldiers coming from the USA HAVE to be taught over here to drive a stick because they cannot get into one "back home."

Absolutely C.R.A.Z.Y.

 

Ferrrari also sells cars on history and passion, design and engine sound, so why diminish tactility.

In fact we see Maclaren reintorducing tactility with the slower 570 and people love it. A stick is but one componant of tactility, but most tactile points are going.

By way of anology, people seem to love NA motors, lambo is lauded for keeping one on the hurucan, and its by far their best seller ever, yet we know turbo motors are "faster'

Motorcycles used to get faster every year, then about 18 years ago yamaha hit a performance peak that was just beyond what you could sue on road pretty much anywhere, or even what most had any skill set to use on track. Happens to be the time period where the charismatic ducati monster came into its own.

After a certain point, more speed is pointless, or fater by nths becomes pointless, and we are probably there with many cars. But eyah paper spec sells. However in the era of ludicrous speed teslas to remain relevant sportscars need to be a complete experience, from design to sound to feel, and a stick option may or may not be integral to that. But just adding stick is not the solution either.

One of the issues with the 599 stick, the 430 stick and the cali is that they were not great sticks, the motors were also not suited or tuned for a stick application. I can also say the 7 speed stick int the carrerra just sucks, maybe thats why the 911R has a 6 speed. Mayor I know you have the same to say about the 7 speed in the vette.

A well enginered stick motor combo like a 997 GT3 can be a very tactile componanat of a car, along whith engine sound, response, steerign feel, seat of the pants feel etc..These are the tytpes of performance characteristics for the road a sportscar can offer over say an amg mercedes.

Pooly done a stick is rubbery, imprecise and often connecetd to a motor with the wrong tq and othr charateristscs for a stick.

As to ferrari always being about ultimate performance, well its not the cali then, or the Ff, so ferrari does do other niches within the sprtscar spectrum, and I think an anolog car(for want of abetter term) would well fit withing ferraris catalogue. Since ferrari also seems stuck around 7k sales per year and wants to go to 10k which niche are they going to fill. Seems like the new millionaire/stockbroker crowd is maxed out.

 

The why is because Ferraris are supposed to be fast. We might not race but the company is all about racing. Customers used to race their Ferrari not polish them like they do today. When mitusbitshi puts a DCT box in low hanging fruit like the EVO and kills everything before the 360 modena and 550 maranello it is just sad.

IMO the only reason to do a manual box in a Ferrari is because they never break. It is so costly to deal with Ferrari F1's and DCT's that for the cost of fixing a Ferrari DCT I can buy a whole BMW M3 with DCT that works!

 

I think MT tends to be associated with a more "connected" car - something that is fun and "talks" to you. Something that tends to be more exciting to drive.

F1 is actually a true Ferrari-designed product from their racing development. It is not so great in AUTO mode, but very effective in MANUAL mode on the track and has some drama to it, in addition to learning to drive with a sequential shifter.

DCT is not a Ferrari derived product - I believe Ferrari uses Getrag sourced DCT system.

In terms of collectibility, MT drives up prices due to rarity. F1 could very well be very desirable some day, due to being Ferrari F1 derived.

 

Yet the advent of the polish them to the C&C owner and DCT coincide almost exactly.

 

? The polish them to the C&C owner existed a long time before the DCT...How long have concours been going on? Didn't Cher have a Ferrari? Elton John? Etc. etc.? It's not like it's that difficult to drive a stick enough to get around. It isn't, and plenty of people bought them just for show before the DCT or F1 trans. Ferrari's have been available with an auto since 1976, but it wasn't until the F1, where it was as fast or faster than the manual, that it really took off. People buy a Ferrari for the speed, real or perceived.

 

I think the owner profile percentages have changed with DCT, and the product has largely catered to this expanded client base by blending out tactility, regardless of transmision.
Just because Cher and Elton had one does not mean they couldnt drive, Eltons was brithday gift. Clapton could certainly drive. Mr Bean had an F1 45k miles and one wreck, not every celebrity cant drive, just most. These days most ferraris owners cant drive and there isa large corelation between the adevent of the DCT and this changed profile of the owner base. But yeah its all about performance.

My larger more serious point, is that with todays acheivable HP numbers, performance can mean more than raw numbers, 0-60 in 2.8 seconds or 3 seconds is an objective measure, but if getting 2.8 secs takes away from the drivign enjoyment its subjectively worse than 3.0 secs, and the performace difference is funtionaly in terms of street car use, irrelevant..

Yeah there were always concors, but concors and C&C have grown massivley, whereas ferrari track events, you used have to bring a ferrari, now with more ferraris than ever other marques are accepted, because so few ferraris show up to use their "performance" at club track events. DCT may be bought with apper specs as the performance excuse, but most are bought because its an easy to use AT, and the whole video gaming of the car is detracting imo from the pure driving experience that ferraris were known for.

 

Hmmm.....Several Ferrari dealers have told me the 458 (with DCT) has about put the service department out of business given it's reliability.

I just spent 6 hours in a 2013 458 on Friday with 8500ish miles and the car is beyond awesome.

The DCT in F cars works just fine, in fact it's pretty darn stellar!

 

Yes Ferrari's would be fast presumably but there are Ferrari race cars and Ferrari street cars, both with their specific purpose.

If speed and racing is the only concern why not just build and sell race cars and stop bothering with street cars altogether?

I've not seen a race car with power seats, navigation, 100 speaker stereo, etc/etc so how is it those compromises can be justified but we can't use a transmission that loses a few tenths per lap that will never be taken?

I've been on a road course a few times and it was just for fun, not on a competitive level. That's the extent of any road racing I will ever do. At the end of the day would I feel more satisfied shifting all day or looking at a lap timer with a few tenths knocked off of it? I'll take 3 pedal every time.

If all out speed was my goal I wouldn't be in an F car at all, I would be in something that's inexpensive to race and modify and wouldn't be heartbroken to put it into a barrier.

 

That is a great datapoint! I would never buy a Ferrari with F1 or DCT unless I could access the data to fix it myself or if it was reliable. I hope what you say is(becomes) the new reality. From where I sit seeing the failures, (we got a zillion datapoints in socal) I see the DCT/F1 as Ferrari's retirement account like the sticky parts or Exhaust slow down ECU's which they refuse to re-engineer since the 1st problems in the late 1980's.

 

The DCT (Getrag) had a rocky start with some internal electrical-based issues, and since (at the time) the gearboxes were not field repairable, only option was an expensive replacement (typically under warranty, but I'm sure some were customer pay).

Later generations (2011+) had some redesigns and, generally, have proven quite reliable so far. Also, they are now field repairable and parts/kits are available. Our race team has had 2 issues, both solenoid related, both were fixed for $3-5K IIRC. Some dealer techs are fully trained up on the repair. From where I sit, I don't think the DCT's are going to be a systemic failure point like 355 and 430 exhausts were. To me, while the "F1" (non-DCT) gearboxes were cool, they are just a traditional gearbox with automated clutch and shift actuators, the DCT is a more robust (albeit more complex, electro-hydraulic) setup.

We will see how these DCT's do when they are at 80K miles, though there are some out there with that mileage already (perhaps few Ferraris, but in M-B too).

 

...“It’s analogue in a digital world,”...

Yes. Yes it is. Give me my sweet, simple analogue escape please.

..."the prospect of managing all of that to perfect control and performance requires a computer, to say the least."...

Yes. Yes it does. Why the need to punch so far above ones weight? The roads I use have not changed in 60 years. That darned consumerism!
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Fixed it for ya...

Go down to the 458/ 488 section. The number one issue for owners? Paint.

It used to be that what you cared about when buying a Ferrari it was the engine, gearbox, engineering and design. Today it's the 2 yellow badges on the side and trying to remove "paint swirls"

 

I like this.

 

Couldnt agree more. The expansion of this owner profile also neatly coincides with DCT, because these guys need AT cars to drive, and the AT also being a DCT means one can brag its faster. Those yellow badges are the selling of history too which is abig draw for this crowd.

Ferrari went in a logical direction, easy to use cars massively expanding the client base, while being able to charge fortunes for palstic sheilds, deviated stiching etc. The result was the building of a great profitable buisness/brand. In the process though they have abandoned their core, and in fact left that constituency open to new entrants.

Porche too expanded the bandwidth of their sprotscars with easy to use and briefly abandoned their core with the 991, and 991 GT3. However porche quickly realized their error and begat the cayman GT4(sold out before it turned a wheel) and 911R(sold out before it was even sold). My guess is we will see more GT4s developed and the core driveline of the 911R will become avialble in purchaseable cars too. All while the paint to sample guys can buy their 991's with the new "faster" turbo motor to their hearts content. That way both client bases are served and served profitably. Ferrari imo is/was spoiled and forgot the customer or who their core customer is, the customer upon which brand kudos was built(its not all f1)

 

I think l have found the perfect solution...for me. Two of our cars are manuals and two are dcts. With only two drivers in the family one can always scratch one itch or the other depending on the mood. I realize everybody can't have four cars. Most households have two. Make one a dct and one a manual.

I have a friend who has eight cars. Imagine trying to put enough mileage on each to keep them running properly. Looks like a first world problem worth having if you have the parking space. Lol

Enjoy

 

Their 'core' in the old days was race cars for the road. A manual trans is anathema to that as there are no high end race cars with a manual trans anymore. Race cars have ac (cool suits at least), radios etc in them and they add a functionality to the car that isn't there without them. A manual transmission does the opposite, removes functionality and speed, so it won't happen. If you want a manual trans Ferrari, there are tens of thousands out there already, but the market doesn't exist in any quantity for new ones. Ferrari invented the f1 trans and put the first one in a production car. The reality is the manual trans in a Ferrari was doomed from the first time the f1trans debuted in f1 and gave a competitive advantage. It was only a matter of time before it overtook the manual like fi, abs,active suspension, active differential, underbody and active aero etc.all did. The writing is on the wall for na and non hybrid as well,especially on high end cars. They've proven they can get a ton more power and efficiency out of a hybrid turbo than they could ever get out of an na car in f1. As soon as full evs prove they can compete with and beat gas vehicles, gas will be the next casualty. Battery and charging tech are not there yet, but in 10 years I think an ev will be competitive at Lemans and that will be the writing on the wall.

Such is progress. There's a reason the 918 has no manual. The i8 has no manual. The aventador no manual. Veyron and chiron no manual. Huayra no manual. They don't belong in a car built for maximum performance.

The 911r is a cheaper car compared to even a base cali t. That's where they'll continue to go, in cheaper cars. M5 no longer has a manual, huracan did away with it, they're gradually getting phased out from the top down. Ferrari is just ahead of the curve as they have been since introducing it.

 

Excellent post.
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The driver is the weak link in any newer production Ferrari starting with the f430. Or for that matter any higher end really powerful/fast sports car.

The nannies are so good, most don't even realize they have saved their ass many many times during a good spirited drive.

I'm a 3 pedal guy, but to build a 458 with a stick would be a true shame. Even the f430 with a stick is well..awful.

 

Ok most street ferraris, which is what we are talking about never went to the track, or went very ocasionaly. Most street ferraris were not TDF's SWB's or GTOs. Yes street ferraris were about performance, but there were cars from the 60 that had better performance Bizzarini or the Alfa T33, miura. Ferrai sold more cars than all of thise put togetehr because they had a balance of rawness useability and performace and no one needed alfa T33 performance on street even when there were no speed limits.

There is a reason why most 918 owners I spoke with who also have a carrera Gt prefer the Carerra Gt.

A 991R is most definatly not cheaper than a Cali. The base list is what 180K good luck finding a slightly used one for less than double that, whereas I can find an slightly used cali for less than list.

What is the relevant performance you speak of on street. If ferrari was all about F1 tech how come the cars are built out of Aluminum not CF.

A lot of what is on modern ferraris is to make then easy to drive for the poseur class, and a lot of the performance tech is gimick to brag about by people who cant get anywhere near what the car can do. The price paid is a balndign of the very feedback and tactility that seperates a true sportscar from an amg mercdedes.

Additionaly the old school manual viper ACR smokes any other street legal car made today on track, and it would be a lucky 458 that could keep up with a new z06. The much(not all) of tech on ferraris is ersatz F1 for people who cant really drive anyway but think they must be cool because they bought the ultimate performance car, to go buy coffe in.

Sportscars have a number of genres. The most prevelant one today is the really really fast modern Gt car which is pretty much what most new ferraris are. Another genre is the hard core drivers car, which would be a lotus, a 911r cayman Gt4, speciale new Gt3 some lauded ferraris of old etc. yes I know some of them have paddles, its not justa bout transmission.

Mostly ferrari does not build drivers cars, you know cars that are extremly entertainig to drive on road between 5/10ths to 9/10/ths and are competant for the ocasional track day> In other words the type of street car for which the company was famous, and for which there is still a large core fan base. Serious drivers apply elsewhere.

A cali, ya gotta be kidding, the only reason its even called a ferrari is because Fiat put a ferrari badge on what was a stillborn maserati project. The Alfa 4c is a more authetic ferrari than the cali. So Just imagine what a 4c built and powered by ferrari would be like, because thats the car many of us want, not the plastic sheilds and deviated stiching kind. And there is no reason ferrari shouldnt serve both constituencies just as porche does.

 

I could be really wrong, but have you spent any significant time in a modern Ferrari lately? I us d to think very much like you, but after spending some serious quality time with many different later model F-cars, there is simply no earthly comparison between old and new.

 

here are some pictures...
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/boxers-tr-m/501378-project-f-512-gtb-f355-512tr-engine-transmission.html
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